Talk:Schwingt freudig euch empor, BWV 36 (Johann Sebastian Bach)

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Merge suggestion

I have added the merge template to the following pages:

based on the fact that it seems they house editions of the same music. However, I'm no Bach scholar so I would like to solicit some advice before moving forward and merging the pages. I suspect that this page title, "Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern, BWV 36 (Johann Sebastian Bach)" is the correct one but would appreciate confirmation/contradiction. Also, the Mather edition on the final page of the above list seems to contain 3 different works... anyone know what that's about? --Bobnotts talk 23:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Rob, there are yet two other pages with the same title, that were cited on the merge discussion at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach. I decided not to do anything with these entries because for me things are still not very clear as to what to do. There are people who think that the same composition, when having translations or texts in other languages, should remain in separate pages. I am of the opinion that editions of a same composition/harmonization should stay on a single page, regardless of the text underlay.
Now about Bach's Chorales, I had to check each work to see if they were really independent Chorales or a part of a Cantata. Each case will have a corresponding Werke Verzeichnis. This verification can be done on the site Bach-Cantatas.com. —Carlos Email.gif 03:30, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
P.S. The Mather edition gathers the following 3 works: Cantata BWV 1 mvt.s 1 and 6, and Cantata BWV 172 mvt. 6. All three harmonizations are distinct from the one at BWV 36b mvt.4 :) Now you have an idea of the complexity of this task!
Thanks for your reply, Carlos. I think I've made a little headway with this - a start, at least. I think we should continue any further discussion on Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach. --Bobnotts talk 22:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Score errors

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The most recent edition is, alas, not from BWV 36. I've added a ScoreError. Furthermore, NONE of the editions given here has the correct text (the tune may be Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern, but the text in the cantata is:

Zwingt die Saiten in Cythara
Strike the strings in Cythera

Und lasst die süße Musica
and let the sweet music

Ganz freudenreich erschallen,
ring out all rich in joy,

Dass ich möge mit Jesulein,
so that with my dear Jesus,

Dem wunderschönen Bräutgam mein,
my wondrously beautiful bridegroom,

In steter Liebe wallen!
I may always overflow with love!

Singet, Springet,
Sing, spring.

Jubilieret, triumphieret, dankt dem Herren!
rejoice, triumph, thank the Lord!

Groß ist der König der Ehren.
Great is the King of Heaven.

The whole "Wie schön leucthet..." situation at CPDL is a mess. I just added a ScoreError template for BWV 172 on the same problem.

My feeling is that there should be a separate Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern (Johann Sebastian Bach) page which lists versions not associated with any other work (such as Cantatas) and also links to pages containing versions that are parts of larger works (such as Cantatas).

At any rate, the most recently (mis)posted edition needs to be moved away from BWV 36.

Chuck, if you look more attentively you'll see there's nothing wrong with the pieces listed on this page, except for the individual details that have been added as Notes to each one. I took great care to check in more than one site to be sure that this new edition should be added here. It is in most aspects based on Bach's harmonization for BWV 36, although the editor took great liberty in changing time lengths and removing some ornaments, and you could call it a "new arrangement" if you like. I checked it against the other harmonizations found in BWV 1 and 176, but couldn't find a version of Chorale BWV 436 to compare. If you still think the new edition should be moved from here, no problem, go ahead and create a new page for it. —Carlos Email.gif 18:17, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen 04:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

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Carlos, my point is that the Reuter edition CPDL #18437 in question is indeed an arrangement (it even says on the score "S: nach J. S. Bach, rhythmische Neufassung"), and hence it is not the 4th movement. Indeed the Bass line also has notes missing due to the the rhythmic adaptation employed by Reuter. Note also that the Description "Rhythmically adapted to Choral from German catholic Gotteslob No. 554" was supplied by Reuter to refer to his edition (as we can plainly see from his submitted AddWorks form) - not to the 4th movement as a whole - so that description should either be moved to the Reuter edition notes or, as I think might be better, the Reuter edition posted on a separate Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern (Johann Sebastian Bach) page as I described previously (where various versions can be sorted out, individual chorales and arrangements posted, and with links to legitimate pages where the chorale appears as a part of a larger work). If moved to a separate page, then a link from the present page to the new page is entirely appropriate. I'd much prefer to see the page for a Bach cantata contain faithful editions of the works only, not adaptations and arrangements of movements. I'm not sure, but I don't think this "purist approach" for Bach cantata pages is a minority opinion. Maybe others will chime in.

As for the three Rog editions, I see that you have pointed out they use the wrong stanza (the first). The Reuter edition gives several stanzas, one of which is close to but not exactly the one in BWV 36.