Difference between revisions of "ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues"

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''[[CW:OI]] redirects here.''
 
''[[CW:OI]] redirects here.''
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<div><div style="margin: 0; margin-right: 30px; margin-left: 30px; border: 1px solid #a3bfb1; padding: 1em 1em 1em 1em; background-color:#cef2e0">
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<center>
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<big>'''External Bulletin Board Upgraded'''</big>
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</center>
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As the first action of the CPDL Transition Committee, the external Bulletin Board (aka "forums") has been upgraded and is now located at [{{MediaWiki:Discussions-url}} {{#sub:{{MediaWiki:Discussions-url}}|7}}]. The upgrade should prevent the majority of spammers and solve posting problems. You can use your old login on the upgraded BB. The [[ChoralWiki:Bulletin board|Bulletin board]] here at ChoralWiki will be active at least for the time being, so feel free to use either.
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</div>
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= Documentation =
 
= Documentation =
 
{{ForumHeader|Operation and implementation issues}}
 
{{ForumHeader|Operation and implementation issues}}
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= Announcements and special topics (most recent first) =
 
= Announcements and special topics (most recent first) =
 
<!-- This section is for SPECIAL TOPICS (Announcements and "Sticky topics" started by Admins/Sysops -->
 
<!-- This section is for SPECIAL TOPICS (Announcements and "Sticky topics" started by Admins/Sysops -->
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== CPDL transition ==
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{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 04:03, 25 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
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Rafael Ornes, founder and manager of CPDL, is stepping back from an active role with CPDL.  Initially, Raf has turned the operational responsibilities to
 +
[[User:bobnotts|bobnotts]], [[User:Carlos|Carlos]], [[User:CHGiffen|CHGiffen]], and [[User:johnhenryfowler|johnhenryfowler]].  Since then, we have enlisted a group of volunteers who have been active on CPDL to serve with us as a CPDL transition committee charged with working out a transition plan. This will cover back-ups and other key areas of operation, setting up a working mechanism for donations (multiple people mailed donation checks and had them returned), etc.
 +
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In addition to the above-mentioned users, the following users have agreed to serve on the Transtion committee:  [[User:Choralia|choralia]], [[User:Arie Fokkens|Arie Fokkens]], and [[User:vaarky|vaarky]].  These enlistees have already contributed greatly to our understanding of what we need to do and how we should go about doing it.
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Of course, Rafael Ornes serves ''ex officio'' on the committee and will be of enormous help in working out the many details of operation and maintenance which he has managed single-handedly for so long. 
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If you have any questions or comments, or if you would like to offer assistance, please feel free to post here or contact one of us.
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}}
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{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 01:34, 6 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
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As many of you may have already noticed from the [[Main Page]], the old "forums" (external bulletin board) is back up and running.  It is accessible at [{{MediaWiki:Discussions-url}} {{#sub:{{MediaWiki:Discussions-url}}|7}}].  Members of the Transition committee should be advised that there is a (hidden) transition committee forum there which they will see when they login at the phpBB3.
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}}
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== Use of this forum ==
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{{ItemPost|{{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 04:16, 12 April 2008 (PDT)|
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This forum is for more techincal discussions of ChoralWiki implementation and operation at CPDL, primarily of interest to admins and others doing editing of pages at CPDL.  Some topics of a more technical nature or involving CPDL policy from [[ChoralWiki:CPDL support, help, and feedback|CPDL support, help, and feedback]] will be moved here.
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}}
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= General topics (most recent first) =
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<!-- Start NEW TOPICS immediately below this line, ABOVE (BEFORE) any other topics -->
  
== Contact with Rafael Ornes ==
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== New administrator ==
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 11:32, 24 July 2008 (PDT)|
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{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 20:41, 7 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
[[User:Rafael Ornes|Rafael Ornes]], founder and manager of CPDL since its inception has recently replied to an e-mail which I sent earlier today (cc also to [[User:Bobnotts|Robert Nottingham]], [[User:Carlos|Carlos Augusto Mourão]], and [[User:John Henry Fowler|John Henry Fowler]], all of us sysops/admins at CPDL).  In addition, Raf and I had a very cordial and informative telephone conversation about an hour and a half ago, in which he told me that he had sent the e-mail reply to me and the above admins, as well as expanding upon some of the information in the e-mail.
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We are happy to announce that [[User:Vaarky]] has been made a [[ChoralWiki:Administrators|sysop (administrator)]] at CPDL who, at a crucial time for CPDL, has stepped up and made siginificant contributions both in terms of editing pages, organization at CPDL, and as a member of the Transition committee.  We are very grateful for Vaarky's help and accepting a greater role here.  Congratulations and welcome!
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}}
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{{ItemPost|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 06:12, 8 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
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Congratulations, Vaarky! Be very welcome to the administrative Board, and keep up the good work!
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}}
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{{Reply|by=[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 15:49, 8 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
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Thanks! I've gotten so much out of CPDL--it's nice to be able to help out.
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}}
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==Proposal of a template for files externally hosted==
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{{ItemPost|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 01:50, 30 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
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Hi everyone! Composer and contributor [[Adrian Cuello]] has just informed that his old website (http://www.audio.ya.com/adriancuello) is no longer available and all his externally hosted files (pdf's and midi's) will have to be redirected to a new site (http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es).  This situation is quite common for contributors who host their editions in free servers and have to move elsewhere from time to time. My suggestion is that for these cases, editors used a template like this: <tt><nowiki>{{website|Adrian_Cuello}}</nowiki></tt>. Their links would look like
 +
::<tt><nowiki>{{website|Adrian_Cuello}}Sonidos/aicamaraga.MID</nowiki></tt>
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instead of
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::<tt><nowiki>http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/Sonidos/aicamaraga.MID</nowiki></tt>
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Whenever the editor had to move to another server, we'd make just one single change to [[Template:website]] instead of changing all pages he contributed. What do you all think?
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}}
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{{Reply|by=[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 09:27, 30 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
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Good idea. Does the directory structure usually stay the same between the old site and new one?
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}}
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{{Reply|color=g|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 10:01, 30 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
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That would have to be a task for the website owner. But I believe most webservers allow their users to create custom subdirectory structures when necessary.
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}}
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{{reply|level=1|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 22:22, 30 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
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I think this is an excellent idea, Carlos.  And I think, in many cases at least, when a website is moved the directory substructure is indeed maintained.
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One way to track the change (in case some hands-on maintenance is required) would be to have the template categorize pages on which it appears with a Category:Externally hosted, sortkey the same as the parameter passed to Template:Website (or Template:Exthost or Template:Webhost, either of which is a little less ambiguous sounding to me).
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}}
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{{reply|color=g|level=1|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 04:16, 31 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
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Hey Chuck, I liked the names you suggested, Webhost or Exthost give indeed a better idea of what the template would do; which one do you prefer? The new category would also be very handy (it's a pity we can't make it "invisible", though). Should we also categorize these pages to [[:Category:External links]]?
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}}
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{{reply|level=2|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 00:33, 1 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
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Hi Carlos.  I've made a first try at [[Template:Website]] and it works in principle, although, in [[Adrian Cuello]]'s case tne new site rejects deep-linking directly to the PDFs and MIDIs.
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For example, the link
 +
<pre>
 +
http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/partituras/aicamaraga.pdf
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</pre>
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sends you to the page
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<pre>
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http://www.fortunecity.com/referercheck/denial.jpg
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</pre>
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But ... there is no problem with getting to http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/composiciones.htm which lists his compositions with links to PDFs (as above) and MIDIs that work when clicked this page.
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 +
This shows that, even though the directory structure is maintained in the website change, one might still encounter problems such as the current one which does not support deep-linking for PDFs and MIDIs.
  
The main thrust of his message is that he has been considering turning over all elements of CPDL for many months, having become too inundated by work and family obligations to manage CPDL properly.  The backlog for him has grown to the point that he was been unable to do much more than reply to some direct support emails and do absolutely required backups and mainenance.
+
Hence, at best (for Adrian Cuello) we shall have to replace the separate extpdf and extmid links with a single net link of the form
 +
<pre>
 +
[{{website|Adrian Cuello}} {{net}}]
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</pre>
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: [{{website|Adrian Cuello}} {{net}}]
  
This has been a very trying realization for Raf to arrive at, and, after almost 10 years of managing CPDL, he feels a deep sorrow over having to let it go.
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This was accomplished by setting
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<pre>
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|case Adrian Cuello=http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/composiciones.htm
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</pre>
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in [[Template:Website]].  I had previously accessed the same page by setting
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<pre>
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|case Adrian Cuello=http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/
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</pre>
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and typing <tt><nowiki>[{{website|Adrian Cuello}}composiciones.htm {{net}}]</nowiki></tt>, but incorporating compositiones.htm into the website case shortens what one has to type elsewhere.
  
Raf is giving Carlos and me the necessary login/access information for the CPDL webserver.  He commends the active group of admins for working together extremely well.  He has offered to help us out and is glad not to have the great pressure overseeing such a large and vital endeavor as CPDLIn our conversation by phone, Raf suggested that we might consider forming some sort of managing committee to do the many things necessary to address current needs of CPDL, such as upgrading the MediaWiki software and extensions, as well as managing the MySQL database directly.  I wish to consult with all admins (at least the active ones) as soon as possible, so that we might quickly come to agreement on how best to do all this.  We will do everything possible to maintain CPDL, enhance it, and preserve the legacy that Rafael has given to choral musicians through CPDL.
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I've not added categorizing the pages in Category:Exthost or Category:External links yet.   
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}}
  
I know many of you will be variously affected by this news. Personally, although I am relieved that we have some guidance and direction in which to proceed, it is with a deep sense of compassion, appreciation, and respect for my friend Raf that I am also saddened by his needing to step back. My best wishes and prayers are with him and his family.
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{{reply|color=g|level=2|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 07:31, 2 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
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Hi Chuck, thanks for giving the initial steps and creating the template. I had been able to deep-link to Adrian's files, but I guess it was because I had opened his page first and had already the necessary cookies set. When I tried again later, I had the same problem as you. Your idea to include the whole web address in the template is perfect. I'll write Adrian to let him know that a solution is under way.
 
}}
 
}}
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 16:02, 24 July 2008 (PDT)|
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==Changes to the Requests: namespace==
I think these news are very positive for CPDL, even though it's sad that Raf needs to step back. You sysops/admins can count on me as an IT professional as well as to contribute to the budget that may be required to run the operations of CPDL.
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{{ItemPost|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 17:17, 29 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
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After a lot of research, I finally was able to find out why '''Requests:''' pages didn't accept talk pages (clicking on the "talk" link would erroneously create a score page instead): a relatively simple 1-line variable setting was missing from ''LocalSettings.php'' and is now included. Now all Request talk pages can be created and edited normally, and searched via the combo box namespaces list.
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And since I was at it, I also renamed the "Requests:" namespace to the singular form "Request:", to comply with the standard followed by all other namespaces. Just by renaming it, all pages in this namespace were automatically renamed too. So now instead of [[Requests:Vago augelletto (Claudio Monteverdi)]], we have [[Request:Vago augelletto (Claudio Monteverdi)]]. This renaming can be easily undone, in case the other admins disagree. The changes made to ''LocalSettings.php'' were:
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(before)
  
As a sign of appreciation for everything Raf did for CPDL, I would propose to highlight his name in the home page, e.g. by adding a "Founder: Rafael Ornes" on the top of the page, or something like that.
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$wgExtraNamespaces =
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        array ( 100 => "Requests",
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              );
  
Max}}
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(after)
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 21:41, 26 July 2008 (PDT)|
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$wgExtraNamespaces =
Great idea! I've found myself mentioning CPDL and the Internet alongside penicillin when commenting that it's a great time to be alive. Although it's unfortunate that Rafael doesn't have time to remain actively involved, having some definiteness around his role may help pave the way for other admins to move projects along that were on hold.
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        array ( 100 => "Request",
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                101 => "Request_talk" );
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}}
  
Worth updating [[ChoralWiki:Contact_CPDL]] with updated phone or e-mail contact info. I flagged it for Cleanup but I'm not sure if someone reads each one or if it waits for volunteers to go through it when they have time--apologies if ths is redundant.
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==Classification of solo works as Bass, Baritone, Tenor, Countertenor, Alto, Soprano solos==
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{{ItemPost|by=[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 00:39, 4 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
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Using the low note/high note specification for an edition I need to know what makes a work have a particular voicepart's solo designation.  Need the same definitions for LOW, MEDIUM,and HIGH Voice. ie. Range: B3 - E♭5 Does this make it Tenor solo ?  Bass solo ? <br>
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Postscript: I found this Wikipedia article on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_range vocal range] which has proposed ranges, and some obvious mistakes which I have fixed: <br>
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::
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::Basic Choral Ranges:
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::---------------------
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::Soprano C4 - A5
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::Mezzo-Soprano: G3 - F5
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::Alto: E3 - E5
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::Counter-Tenor: G3 - F5
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::Tenor: D3 - A4
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::Baritone: G2 - G4
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::Bass: E2 - E4
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::---------------------
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Perhaps a diagram like this might help:
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-----
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<pre>
 +
g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g
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1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6
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          |          |    |    |  |    |      |    |
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    Bass |-----------|-----|-----|---|    |      |    |
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                      |    |    |        |      |    |
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                Tenor |-----|-----|---------|      |    |
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                            |    |                |    |
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                      Alto |-----|-----------------|    |
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                                  |                      |
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                          Soprano|-----------------------|
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</pre>
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[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 01:08, 5 August 2008 (PDT)
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  {{Reply|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 08:05, 5 August 2008 (PDT)|color=y|text=
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I have slightly shrunk the range that John originally displayed (which went 6 octaves), from C1 to C7.  And, because the Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass range indicators did not appear in his original, I made a few edits to make them appear.  The original ranges that John gives have been preserved.
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  }}
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}}
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{{ItemPost|—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 02:56, 5 August 2008 (PDT)|
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John, there's something wrong with these ranges: Mezzo's high note A6 is higher than Soprano's C6! The same happens with Baritone's lower note A3, which is higher than Tenor's C3. Perhaps you made this confusion by thinking that the scale begins in A, when in fact it begins in C (...F0,A0,B0,C1,D1,E1,F1,G1,A1,B1,C2... etc.)
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}}
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{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 04:07, 5 August 2008 (PDT)|Carlos, I did make that mistake. I've fixed it.  What would you suggest for the ranges of Mezzo, Counter-Tenor, Baritone ?  Does the above look correct now ?
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}}
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{{Reply|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 14:07, 5 August 2008 (PDT)|color=y|level=1|text=
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Hi John, I am a tenor, so I can speak of my voice type: The tenors that I know which have the most limited range can still sing with no effort between C3 and G4. Those with wider range can sing as low as A2 and as high as A4 (my own range is G#2 to A4). Sorry for not being able to help with the other voices, I could ask my conductor later, she'll know it for sure.
 
}}
 
}}
  
== Use of this forum ==
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{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 08:05, 5 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 04:16, 12 April 2008 (PDT)|
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The vocal ranges given above are to be construed as '''choral''' ranges, '''not solo''' ranges.  There is another important Wikipedia article on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_type voice type] which is more thorough and includes a discussion of solo vocal ranges.
This forum is for more techincal discussions of ChoralWiki implementation and operation at CPDL, primarily of interest to admins and others doing editing of pages at CPDLSome topics of a more technical nature or involving CPDL policy from [[ChoralWiki:CPDL support, help, and feedback|CPDL support, help, and feedback]] will be moved here.
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 +
In solo singing, one must take into account not just vocal range, but also '''tessitura''', '''vocal weight''', and '''timbre''' - and these combine to determine the '''voice types''' for solo voices.  A singer's ''tessitura'' is where the voice has the best ''timbre'' (vocal quality or "color"), easy volume, and most comfort.  For example, a soprano and a mezzo-soprano may have almost identical vocal ranges, but have tessituras that lie in different parts of the range (the soprano having the higher tessitura).
 +
 
 +
Here are typical vocal ranges (and typical extremes for soloists):
 +
 
 +
* Soprano:  (A3 or B3) C4 &mdash; A5 (C6 or D6; some coloraturas to F6, G6 or even A6)
 +
* Mezzo-soprano: (G3) A3 &mdash; G5 or A5 (B6 or C6)
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* Contralto (alto is really the wrong term for soloists): (E3 or F3) G3 &mdash: G5 (A5 or even B-flat5)
 +
 
 +
* Countertenor: (G3) A3 &mdash; E5 (F5 or even higher for a ''Sopranist'')
 +
 
 +
* Tenor: (A2 or B2) C3 &mdash; C5 or D5 (E5 or F5)
 +
* Baritone: (F2 or G2) A2 &mdash; F4 (G4 or A4)
 +
* Bass: (C2 or D2) E2 or F2 &mdash; C4 or E4 (F4)
 +
: note that Basso profundo and Russian bass ranges may be even lower, as far down as B-flat1 or A1)
 +
 
 +
These are by no means authoritative, and indeed, both the ''New Harvard Dictionary of Music'' and the ''Grove Music Online'' ranges vary somewhat from my list above and the list John gives.  John's and these last two ranges are probably intended to define typical ''choral vocal ranges''.
 +
 
 +
For High, Medium, and Low voicings (ordinarily not gender specific, the female range being an octave above the male range), '''typical''' ranges might be:
 +
 
 +
* High female (male): B3 or C4 &mdash; G5 or A5 (B2 or C3 &mdash; G4 or A4)
 +
* Medium female (male): G3 or A3 &mdash; E5 or F5 (G2 or A2 &mdash; E4 or F4)
 +
* Low female (male): E3 or F3 &mdash; C5 or D5 (E2 or F2 &mdash; C4 or D4)
 +
 
 +
Indeed these are good norms for choral vocal ranges, as well, corresponding to traditional Soprano (Tenor), Mezzo (Baritone), Alto (Bass) voices.  Excursions outside these ranges call for special singers and/or special circumstances (such as large chorus in the case of choral ranges).  Furthermore, composers often choose vocal ranges that suit the voices they have at hand (or ranges that they are fond of)For example, I have written more than my share of choral bass parts that extend down to D2 or up to E4, choral soprano parts that extend down to A3.  Or, Haydn's Thereseinmesse has choral bass parts that extend from D2 up to F4!  It seems that even in classical times, there was little limit to using extreme vocal ranges, even for choral music.
 +
 
 +
The period of solo vocal music also probably is important.  For example, here are the bass solos from [[Messiah, HWV 56 (George Frideric Handel)|Messiah]] and their ranges:
 +
* Thus saith the Lord: C3 &mdash; D4
 +
* But who may abide (16A): A2 &mdash; F4
 +
* For behold, darkness shall cover the earth: A2 &mdash; D4
 +
* The people that walked in darkness: F-sharp2 &mdash; E4
 +
* Thou art gone up on high: C3 &mdash; E4
 +
* Why do the nations: B2 &mdash; E4
 +
* Behold, I tell you a mystery: A2 &mdash; D4
 +
* The trumpet shall sound:  A2 &mdash; E4
 +
With the exception of ''The people...'' the ambitus (range), collectively, is: A2 &mdash; E4.  This is well within the solo baritone range and (except for ''The people...'') even in the (low extended) tenor solo range.  It is largely because of tessitura that these are considered bass solos by most people (even though they are often sung by baritones or bass-baritones).
 +
 
 +
As for John's example with ambitus B3 &mdash; E-flat5 is, on vocal range alone, probably best classified as baritone solo, although many tenors and basses could also sing it.  The real question, though, is a matter of tessitura, vocal weight, and timbre required of the solo - and for these one must consult the score directly, carefully.
 +
}}
 +
{{ItemPost
 +
|by=[[User:Ebykm|Ebykm]] 18:03, 5 August 2008 (PDT)
 +
|text=
 +
Excellent one Chuck, do you think we should put vocal range indicators in new scores?.
 +
}}
 +
{{ItemPost
 +
|by=[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 00:59, 6 August 2008 (PDT)|text=Nice job, Chuck. In the short term I would like to add vocal ranges to the 200 cross-posted scores I just completed from [http://artsongcentral.com/songs-and-sources/ "Art Song Central"].  Luckily Dave Newman has included the ranges, so it will be straightforward to add them.  Putting in the Bass Solo, Tenor Solo, ..., High, Medium, Low categories will not be straightforward without a definition for each.  This category information will allow these songs to be searched for by voice type, which I think is a nice addition to CPDL's functionality.  We just need to decide how to do it before I embark on editing each of the 200 works pages to include Ranga and solo categories.
 
}}
 
}}
 +
{{Reply|by=[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 06:52, 6 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
One quick procedural suggestion--should the topic title be updated to reflect that this is now focusing on choral ranges as well as solos? Those people following the Recent Changes log would reasonably think this is still about soloist ranges. I posted some comments in the page JHF created for visually showing vocal ranges before realizing it was based on discussion here.
  
= General topics (most recent first) =
+
Here's my experience about soprano ranges. In modern choral music, it is not uncommon for non-soloist sopranos in choral works to have to go up to high B (Frank Martin's double-chorus mass) or high C (Sandstrom's Hear My Prayer, Oh Lord); in January, I attended a recording gig where the second sopranos in the chorus all had to sing high C and the first sopranos in the chorus were asked to sing high E! In modern editions of Renaissance scores, most editors transpose to avoid going above a high G, since it's difficult for many singers to go higher if they're trying to keep to a Renaissance sounds. It varies significantly by the style of music.
<!-- Start NEW TOPICS immediately below this line, ABOVE (BEFORE) any other topics -->
+
 
 +
Ideally, I'd love to see actual range (c4-g5) if there were a way to search within a range: e.g. song contains maximum of two parts with upper range less than or equal to g5, lower range greater than or equal to C4, no more than one part in the range X-to-Y, etc. One possible approach to indicating standard range versus special range would be to use something like S for the usual soprano range, and S' or some other marking if the soprano needs to go higher or lower than the usual range. Would something like this be workable to indicate when special forces are required?
 +
}}
  
 
==Editor/contributor names==
 
==Editor/contributor names==
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 20:15, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 20:15, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
In [http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ave_Maria%2C_Op._52%2C_No._6_(Franz_Schubert)&diff=114409&oldid=114180 this edit] I changed the contributor's name in a score entry added by John Henry Fowler from "Resneck" to "IMSLP". As some of you will be aware, [http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page IMSLP] doesn't require contributors to give their real names, instead the scanner's username is listed. I have previously changed "Feldmahler" to "Edward W. Guo" as this is the name given on his [http://imslp.org/wiki/User:Feldmahler user page], however, Resneck doesn't list his/her name. I think in the future, where a person's real name cannot be obtained, we should have the name of the resource that they contributed to in the first place. This only refers to when anyone but the editor or contributor adds the work to CPDL. I'm going away tomorrow but I'm sure the community will make the right decision on this without any further input from me.
+
In [{{SERVER}}/wiki/index.php?title=Ave_Maria%2C_Op._52%2C_No._6_(Franz_Schubert)&diff=114409&oldid=114180 this edit] I changed the contributor's name in a score entry added by John Henry Fowler from "Resneck" to "IMSLP". As some of you will be aware, [http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page IMSLP] doesn't require contributors to give their real names, instead the scanner's username is listed. I have previously changed "Feldmahler" to "Edward W. Guo" as this is the name given on his [http://imslp.org/wiki/User:Feldmahler user page], however, Resneck doesn't list his/her name. I think in the future, where a person's real name cannot be obtained, we should have the name of the resource that they contributed to in the first place. This only refers to when anyone but the editor or contributor adds the work to CPDL. I'm going away tomorrow but I'm sure the community will make the right decision on this without any further input from me.
 
}}
 
}}
  
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{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 02:32, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|Is [[Franz Schubert]] in the category "Classical composer", "Romantic composer", or both ?  Currently his composer page is classified as both, and the various works pages are 50/50 Classical music/Romantic music. }}
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 02:32, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|Is [[Franz Schubert]] in the category "Classical composer", "Romantic composer", or both ?  Currently his composer page is classified as both, and the various works pages are 50/50 Classical music/Romantic music. }}
  
{{ItemPost|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;[http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/User_talk:Carlos http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/skins/monobook/mail_icon.gif] 04:34, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
+
{{ItemPost|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 04:34, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 
Hi John, as you know it's not uncommon to have composers who lived in a transition period between two styles (as for example Monteverdi and Beethoven) and who composed in both "old" and "new" styles or in a blend of both. This may be the case of Schubert, and hence his composer page cites both categories. As for his works, they would have to be analyzed one by one to decide toward which style they tend more, though this is a somewhat subjective choice.
 
Hi John, as you know it's not uncommon to have composers who lived in a transition period between two styles (as for example Monteverdi and Beethoven) and who composed in both "old" and "new" styles or in a blend of both. This may be the case of Schubert, and hence his composer page cites both categories. As for his works, they would have to be analyzed one by one to decide toward which style they tend more, though this is a somewhat subjective choice.
  
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:"While he was clearly influenced by the Classical sonata forms of Mozart and Beethoven (his early works, among them notably the 5th Symphony, are particularly Mozartean), his formal structures and his developments tend to give the impression more of melodic development than of harmonic drama.  This combination of Classical form and long-breathed Romantic melody sometimes lends them a discursive style.  His harmonic innovations include movements in which the first section ends in the key of the subdominant rather than the dominant.  Schubert's practice here was a forerunner of the common Romantic technique of relaxing, rather than raising, tension in the middle of a movement, with final resolution postponed to the very end."
 
:"While he was clearly influenced by the Classical sonata forms of Mozart and Beethoven (his early works, among them notably the 5th Symphony, are particularly Mozartean), his formal structures and his developments tend to give the impression more of melodic development than of harmonic drama.  This combination of Classical form and long-breathed Romantic melody sometimes lends them a discursive style.  His harmonic innovations include movements in which the first section ends in the key of the subdominant rather than the dominant.  Schubert's practice here was a forerunner of the common Romantic technique of relaxing, rather than raising, tension in the middle of a movement, with final resolution postponed to the very end."
 +
}}
 +
 +
{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 00:32, 4 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
In fact, Wikipedia also categorizes Schubert ''both'' as a Classical composer and as a Romantic composer.  As another example, Wikipedia classifies [[Gustav Mahler]] both as a 20th century classical composer and as a Romantic composer, which should come as no surprise to those who know Mahler's music.  Even Arnold Schoenberg (for example, in the earlier parts of his monumental oratorio ''Gurre-Lieder'') wrote in the Romantic music idiom before turning to atonality later.
 
}}
 
}}
  
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}}
 
}}
  
{{ItemPost|by=[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 04:51, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
+
{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 04:51, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 
Last things first.  Not everything belongs to {{CiteCat|Sheet music}} - only score/works pages with CPDL editions on them do.  And for each edition with <nowiki>{{NewWork|2008-08-01}}</nowiki> appearing on it (note, it's today's date), that page will appear on [[ChoralWiki:2008-08-01 Scores]] by virtue of it being in both the "Sheet music" and "2008-08-01" categories.  This is because the code that generates this listing is a DPL (Dynamic Page Listing) - take a look at the code if you're interested.  Without the "Sheet music" and date categories, you would not see the scores listed under "Most recent scores" on the [[Main Page]].  The easiest way to think of "Sheet music" is that it is for pages that have complete edition information on them.
 
Last things first.  Not everything belongs to {{CiteCat|Sheet music}} - only score/works pages with CPDL editions on them do.  And for each edition with <nowiki>{{NewWork|2008-08-01}}</nowiki> appearing on it (note, it's today's date), that page will appear on [[ChoralWiki:2008-08-01 Scores]] by virtue of it being in both the "Sheet music" and "2008-08-01" categories.  This is because the code that generates this listing is a DPL (Dynamic Page Listing) - take a look at the code if you're interested.  Without the "Sheet music" and date categories, you would not see the scores listed under "Most recent scores" on the [[Main Page]].  The easiest way to think of "Sheet music" is that it is for pages that have complete edition information on them.
  
Now on to Solos.  As presently understood, {{CiteCat|Solo}} is an ''obsolete'' subcategory of {{CiteCat|Solo vocal music}}, and works in that subcategory are supposed to be recategorized in an appropriate subcategory of "Solo vocal music", such as {{CiteCat|Solo medium}}, {{CiteCat|Solo Soprano}}, etc.  If you want to do a search for all solos, you could search on the keyword "solo" (which, conveniently and unlike "1vv" or the correct "1v", is a word with more than three characters) - or even "solo baritone" if, say, you wanted to hunt for baritone solos (but simply going to {{CiteCat|Solo Baritone}} would be much easier and not yield so many extraneous hits.   
+
Now on to Solos.  As presently understood, Solo [link removed - category now deleted] is an ''obsolete'' subcategory of {{CiteCat|Solo vocal music}}, and works in that subcategory are supposed to be recategorized in an appropriate subcategory of "Solo vocal music", such as {{CiteCat|Solo medium}}, {{CiteCat|Solo Soprano}}, etc.  If you want to do a search for all solos, you could search on the keyword "solo" (which, conveniently and unlike "1vv" or the correct "1v", is a word with more than three characters) - or even "solo baritone" if, say, you wanted to hunt for baritone solos (but simply going to {{CiteCat|Solo Baritone}} would be much easier and not yield so many extraneous hits.   
  
 
:Note that {{CiteCat|Solo vocal music}} lists only voicings for various kinds of "standalone" solo music (ie. ''without'' chorus), including duets, trios, etc.  There is a separate but corresponding {{CiteCat|Choral solo music}} category for voicings of solos that ''do appear'' within a choral texture or choral movement.
 
:Note that {{CiteCat|Solo vocal music}} lists only voicings for various kinds of "standalone" solo music (ie. ''without'' chorus), including duets, trios, etc.  There is a separate but corresponding {{CiteCat|Choral solo music}} category for voicings of solos that ''do appear'' within a choral texture or choral movement.
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I hope these explanations help and that people will add their thoughts.
 
I hope these explanations help and that people will add their thoughts.
 +
}}
 +
 +
== Contact with Rafael Ornes ==
 +
{{ItemPost|{{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 11:32, 24 July 2008 (PDT)|
 +
[[User:Rafael Ornes|Rafael Ornes]], founder and manager of CPDL since its inception has recently replied to an e-mail which I sent earlier today (cc also to [[User:Bobnotts|Robert Nottingham]], [[User:Carlos|Carlos Augusto Mourão]], and [[User:John Henry Fowler|John Henry Fowler]], all of us sysops/admins at CPDL).  In addition, Raf and I had a very cordial and informative telephone conversation about an hour and a half ago, in which he told me that he had sent the e-mail reply to me and the above admins, as well as expanding upon some of the information in the e-mail.
 +
 +
The main thrust of his message is that he has been considering turning over all elements of CPDL for many months, having become too inundated by work and family obligations to manage CPDL properly.  The backlog for him has grown to the point that he was been unable to do much more than reply to some direct support emails and do absolutely required backups and mainenance.
 +
 +
This has been a very trying realization for Raf to arrive at, and, after almost 10 years of managing CPDL, he feels a deep sorrow over having to let it go.
 +
 +
Raf is giving Carlos and me the necessary login/access information for the CPDL webserver.  He commends the active group of admins for working together extremely well.  He has offered to help us out and is glad not to have the great pressure overseeing such a large and vital endeavor as CPDL.  In our conversation by phone, Raf suggested that we might consider forming some sort of managing committee to do the many things necessary to address current needs of CPDL, such as upgrading the MediaWiki software and extensions, as well as managing the MySQL database directly.  I wish to consult with all admins (at least the active ones) as soon as possible, so that we might quickly come to agreement on how best to do all this.  We will do everything possible to maintain CPDL, enhance it, and preserve the legacy that Rafael has given to choral musicians through CPDL.
 +
 +
I know many of you will be variously affected by this news.  Personally, although I am relieved that we have some guidance and direction in which to proceed, it is with a deep sense of compassion, appreciation, and respect for my friend Raf that I am also saddened by his needing to step back.  My best wishes and prayers are with him and his family.
 +
}}
 +
 +
{{ItemPost|[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 16:02, 24 July 2008 (PDT)|
 +
I think these news are very positive for CPDL, even though it's sad that Raf needs to step back. You sysops/admins can count on me as an IT professional as well as to contribute to the budget that may be required to run the operations of CPDL.
 +
 +
As a sign of appreciation for everything Raf did for CPDL, I would propose to highlight his name in the home page, e.g. by adding a "Founder: Rafael Ornes" on the top of the page, or something like that.
 +
 +
Max}}
 +
 +
{{ItemPost|[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 21:41, 26 July 2008 (PDT)|
 +
Great idea! I've found myself mentioning CPDL and the Internet alongside penicillin when commenting that it's a great time to be alive. Although it's unfortunate that Rafael doesn't have time to remain actively involved, having some definiteness around his role may help pave the way for other admins to move projects along that were on hold.
 +
 +
Worth updating [[ChoralWiki:Contact_CPDL]] with updated phone or e-mail contact info. I flagged it for Cleanup but I'm not sure if someone reads each one or if it waits for volunteers to go through it when they have time--apologies if ths is redundant.
 
}}
 
}}
  
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{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 04:55, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|Putting in the file size of PDF, MIDI and Source files represents a lot of additional time and bother.  Only when the file size is over 100 meg is it really helpful to the user.  Bob has suggested that we omit this information, and has started removing the "200 Kb." estimates on my recent postings, which means I can't search and replace this information in the future.  I therefore will be omitting file sizes in future postings.  This will make Bobs editing job easier, and eliminate the need to update the estimates to real file sizes in the future. }}
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 04:55, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|Putting in the file size of PDF, MIDI and Source files represents a lot of additional time and bother.  Only when the file size is over 100 meg is it really helpful to the user.  Bob has suggested that we omit this information, and has started removing the "200 Kb." estimates on my recent postings, which means I can't search and replace this information in the future.  I therefore will be omitting file sizes in future postings.  This will make Bobs editing job easier, and eliminate the need to update the estimates to real file sizes in the future. }}
  
{{ItemPost|—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;[http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/User_talk:Carlos http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/skins/monobook/mail_icon.gif] 15:26, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|
+
{{ItemPost|—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 15:26, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
In general I agree with you, John, file size is no longer a very useful information nowadays when everybody has broadband. I think that leaving just page format (A4/Letter) and number of pages will suffice. }}
 
In general I agree with you, John, file size is no longer a very useful information nowadays when everybody has broadband. I think that leaving just page format (A4/Letter) and number of pages will suffice. }}
  
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I had the same experience, with my check returned, and I'm very worried about the future of CPDL. An action is in progress by a couple of CPDL administrators to get in touch with Raf. If this attempt does not succeed, I think we should contact the administrator of the server farm where CPDL is hosted, and ascertain that back-ups are regularly made, and somebody can restore them in the case of need. My phpBB3 back-up bulletin board is always available for whoever wants to use it, and it may act as a contact point for our admins should CPDL collapse (that will make this wiki version collapse as well.}}
 
I had the same experience, with my check returned, and I'm very worried about the future of CPDL. An action is in progress by a couple of CPDL administrators to get in touch with Raf. If this attempt does not succeed, I think we should contact the administrator of the server farm where CPDL is hosted, and ascertain that back-ups are regularly made, and somebody can restore them in the case of need. My phpBB3 back-up bulletin board is always available for whoever wants to use it, and it may act as a contact point for our admins should CPDL collapse (that will make this wiki version collapse as well.}}
  
{{ItemPost|?[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;[http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/User_talk:Carlos http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/skins/monobook/mail_icon.gif] 15:01, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|As Choralia said, an attempt was made to contact Raf Ornes 9 days ago, during the spambot attacks (more about it below, under "Administrative remedies ... "). We emailed Raf through 3 different email accounts (CPDL's, personal Gmail and even his Church email) and still no reply. He seems to have shifted his priorities [http://www.redwoodcitydailynews.com/article/2008-6-11-vytas towards other projects] lately, and I'm trying to figure out what exactly this will mean for the future of CPDL.
+
{{ItemPost|?[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 15:01, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|As Choralia said, an attempt was made to contact Raf Ornes 9 days ago, during the spambot attacks (more about it below, under "Administrative remedies ... "). We emailed Raf through 3 different email accounts (CPDL's, personal Gmail and even his Church email) and still no reply. He seems to have shifted his priorities [http://www.redwoodcitydailynews.com/article/2008-6-11-vytas towards other projects] lately, and I'm trying to figure out what exactly this will mean for the future of CPDL.
 
}}
 
}}
  
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{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|huh?]]</small></sup> 08:09, 15 July 2008 (PDT)|Hi Rob, I never thought about this before, might be a good idea. The icons for the PDF and MIDI files are quite obvious and universally recognized. I just wonder if people visiting score pages won't be a bit confused at first with icons they don't know yet (I suppose we'd adopt icons for the other sources too, as Sibelius, Encore etc.?), but as soon as they look at the Legend everything would be clear. The ideal would be if we could make the tooltip (that appears when we drag the mouse over the icons) show the program name instead of the link that it shows now.}}
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|huh?]]</small></sup> 08:09, 15 July 2008 (PDT)|Hi Rob, I never thought about this before, might be a good idea. The icons for the PDF and MIDI files are quite obvious and universally recognized. I just wonder if people visiting score pages won't be a bit confused at first with icons they don't know yet (I suppose we'd adopt icons for the other sources too, as Sibelius, Encore etc.?), but as soon as they look at the Legend everything would be clear. The ideal would be if we could make the tooltip (that appears when we drag the mouse over the icons) show the program name instead of the link that it shows now.}}
  
== Administrative remedies to mitigate current (July 08) spam storm? ==
+
= Archived topics =
{{ItemPost|[[User:Kkroon|Kkroon]] 20:42, 11 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
An observation that struck me as I was looking through the Recent Changes for pages that needed to be reverted:  all of the perps appear to have ten-character usernames, the first and sixth characters of which are capitalized.
 
  
Is there any way to use this information to disallow (for example) the creation of userIDs with that format (for the time being)?
+
Topics included in an archive are listed below the archive name.  Click on the archive name to find the archived postings.
  
Signed,
+
== [[ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues/Archive 3|Archive 3]] ==
An occasional volunteer who's been annoyed with these spates of Wikispam ever since they started.
 
 
 
[[User:Kkroon|Kkroon]] 20:42, 11 July 2008 (PDT)
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 22:31, 11 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
Unfortunately, there is no such mechanism for disallowing the creation of UserIDs with a particular format.  It is indeed a bothersome situation for all of us, especially [[ChoralWiki:Administrator|admins]] who try their best to keep up with reverting the spambot edits and blocking] the offenders.  When (and if) we ever get a new version of the wiki software, it is hoped that it will come equipped with visual confirmation requirements (such as Capcha) that would prevent a bot from being able to register.  In the meantime, thank you very much for your concern and also especially for your help in reverting the spam edits.
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Kkroon|Kurtis]] 23:42, 13 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
And none of these admins (except maybe Mr. Ornes) can install an extension like http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmAccount ?
 
 
 
Sure, it would cause some administrative overhead -- confirming or declining an account application.  Maybe it would help ... but what do I know?
 
 
 
[[User:Kkroon|Kkroon]] 16:37, 13 July 2008 (PDT)
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|huh?]]</small></sup> 06:15, 14 July 2008 (PDT)|Some other suggestions to implement, in case any of the admins can reach and edit '''LocalSettings.php''':  [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Preventing_access Preventing access] and [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Barrylb/Usercan_Hook Usercan Hook]. With these we could restrict a bit the attacks to fewer pages, by protecting entire namespaces as ''User:'', ''Category:'', ''ChoralWiki:'' and ''Template:''.
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 06:31, 14 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
Unfortunately, only Raf Ornes ([[User:Admin]]) has direct access to the database and other system files, hence none of the rest of us admins is able to access and edit ''LocalSettings.php'' or install MediaWiki extensions.
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|huh?]]</small></sup> 01:41, 15 July 2008 (PDT)|Chuck, what if we all wrote to Raf asking him to do something, or at least to grant one of us permission to do it in his place?  If he keeps silent even after being warned, then I guess I'll start having big concerns about the future of this project and the time and effort we all put into it.
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 02:35, 15 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
I'd definitely like to see some Capcha style protection on this wiki so if you've got the time, please go ahead and make your request to Raf, Carlos. It may be prudent to suggest to Raf that you're not expecting instant action, but a short reply which details when he may get the chance to update the wiki software and add the Capcha addon. I'm sure we'd all be please to hear of any reply you get. I'll probably send an email to Raf soon and then write to him every week till I get a reply...}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|huh?]]</small></sup> 03:01, 15 July 2008 (PDT)|I'll do that, Rob! But I believe the more people write him, the more he'll feel the urge. Should I use the email at his user page or do you know of any personal email he checks more often? Thanks.}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|--[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 06:16, 15 July 2008 (PDT)|Carlos & Rob, as we discussed via private email in the past, I'm also rather concerned about the future of this project. Please let me know if you want me to also write to Raf. If you don't get any response from Raf, I think we should contact the administrators of the server farm where CPDL is hosted, and find some workaround to preserve CPDL as a significant music asset that cannot be lost. Apparently, the hosting server is ccarh-www-2.Stanford.EDU (IP address 171.67.229.80), at the Stanford University. Let's consider this as a back-up solution in the case you cannot get in touch with Raf. Regards. Max}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:David Newman|David Newman]] 12:38, 15 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
Has anyone tried calling Raf at his church? If something has happened to him, they would likely know. His number as published on the church website is (650) 851-8282 x106. I glanced through the church news, but didn't see any mention of him being indisposed or away. I'd be surprised, though, if he was willing to let CPDL fall into disrepair, and clearly the spambot thing is a major problem.
 
}}
 
 
 
== Category:New works added to Template:NewWorks ==
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 01:54, 7 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
Some of you have noticed that I modified [[Template:NewWork]] so that it, in addition to adding a category of the form yyyy-mm-dd (used by [[Template:LatestScores]] and the ChoralWiki:yyyy-mm-dd_Scores pages to provide listings of new editions posted), the template now also places a page in [[:Category:New works]], sorted by the posting date passed to the template.  This latest feature should make it easy for us to remove "stale" instances of the NewWork template.  I have tentatively stated that instances which are more than two years old can be safely removed.  Currently there are somewhat over 500 instances of NewWork being applied to editions which are more than two years old.
 
I see that Rob has begun removing such templates, and I shall do more of the same in coming days/weeks (holidays and other things have intervened for my getting much of a start).
 
 
 
My choice of two years was a bit arbitrary (mainly because I was not wanting to offend anyone).  If hindsight and the holiday weekend provide any retrospect, it might be that two years could be further reduced, say, to one year.  But I'm posting this here to get feedback.
 
 
 
If anyone wants to help pruning the stale instances of NewWork, just {{CiteCat|New works}}, click on a page near the top of the list, find the stale template and remove it.  It would further help CPDL if you check through any such page for errors, corrections, and any other improvements, such as formatting and '''proper application''' (ie. '''''read the instructions''''') of such templates as [[Template:Editions|Edtions]], [[Template:Composer|Composer]], [[Template:Voicing|Voicing]], [[Template:Lang|Language]], etc.)
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 03:50, 7 July 2008 (PDT)|Hi Chuck! To be honest, I don't see much sense in adding to a page something that '''we know''' that will have to be removed anytime later. I'd like to recommend a change in the way this template works, adding a bit of "intelligence" to it: we could make it compare the entered date with <tt><nowiki>{{CURRENTYEAR}}, {{CURRENTMONTH}}</nowiki></tt> and <tt><nowiki>{{CURRENTDAY}}</nowiki></tt> and dependind on the results, make it show or not the "NEW" icon on the score page, besides including or not the page in "New work" categories. We'd only have to change the template to also accept the format <tt><nowiki>{{NewWork|yyyy|mm|dd}}</nowiki></tt>, and adding the logic would be quite easy (I can help with that). The best of the worlds would be if we could deal with the date strings in use now ("yyyy-mm-dd"), so that we wouldn't have to remove or edit the stale instances, but I couldn't find on Wikipedia any function that breaks a string in smaller parts :((  Do you know of any?
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 02:49, 8 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
Hi Carlos.  Unfortunately, we don't have the MediaWiki ParserFunctions and StringFunctions.  The [[Template:Switch]] is a template kludge for the MediaWiki <nowiki>#switch</nowiki>, and I don't see any easy way to kludge other such functions.  Without these, it would be next to impossible to implement the scheme you suggest (which we have thought about and wished for before!).
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 06:51, 11 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
 
 
'''Edit: '''  The follow post is obsolete, the Template:NW having been deleted.
 
 
 
I have created a new Template:NW which is an extension of [[Template:NewWork]] which (if it replaces the latter) is backwardly compatible with the latter and which (at least, down the road a year or two) could prove useful somewhat in the way that Carlos suggested above ... albeit it is more primitive than we would like (since we don't have MediaWiki ParserFunctions and StringFunctions here).
 
 
 
I have taken the liberty of replacing <tt><nowiki>{{NewWork|2006-02-19}}</nowiki></tt> in [[Uno spirto celeste (Giovanni Maria Nanino)]] with <tt><nowiki>{{NW|2006-02-19|2006}}</nowiki></tt>, so that you can see the result - namely, that the "new" icon does not appear, and the categories {{CiteCat|2006-02-19}} and {{CiteCat|New works}} don't appear either.
 
 
 
On [[Mein gläubiges Herze (Johann Sebastian Bach)]] I've replaced <tt><nowiki>{{NewWork|2008-07-08}}</nowiki></tt> with <tt><nowiki>{{NW|2008-07-08|2008}}</nowiki></tt> - and the "new" icon does indeed appear along with the categories {{CiteCat|2008-07-08}}, {{CiteCat|New works}}, and a ''new'' category {{CiteCat|2008}}.
 
  
If NW is used exactly like the present NewWork template (ie. with only the one date parameter in the form yyyy-mm-dd), then NW functions exacly the same way as NewWork does.  The idea behind the functioning of NW with its second year (yyyy) parameter is that if the year given (eg. 2006) is two or more years older than the present year, then the template does nothing, as in the Nanino example above.  As presently configured, the two year trick has to be updated annually (by adding another <tt><nowiki>|case: yyyy= </nowiki></tt> field.  At present the only such field is <tt><nowiki>|case: 2006= </nowiki></tt> (since there are no instances of the NewWork template prior to 2006).
+
* '''Administrative remedies to mitigate current (July 08) spam storm?
  
When and if we ever get the MediaWiki update required, the template can be changed to do everything automatically and precisely, but in the meantime, it might be a good idea to change NewWork over to an extension which looks something like NW does.  If people approve, I'll probably go ahead and make such a change, although I'll probably have the template ''not'' add a Category:yyyy (since it is not really needed).
+
* '''Category:New works added to Template:NewWorks
  
Your comments are encouraged!
+
* '''Testing a new set of Link templates
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 07:53, 13 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
That looks good to me, Chuck. Thanks for your work. Would it be possible to make the deciding factor for the template a little more accurate, ie. make it dependant on not just the year but also the month and day?}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|huh?]]</small></sup> 10:50, 13 July 2008 (PDT)|Sorry Chuck, I hadn't seen your last message here about the NW template (these bot edits made your reply slip through) when I wrote to you in your talk page. Feel free to move that talk here if you want so. I made that test unaware that you had already offered another solution here, sorry if it looked like I was competing with you, I thought you were still making tests, just as me.
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 23:38, 13 July 2008 (PDT)|
 
No problem, Carlos.  Indeed, my thoughts now favor (at least until we can get the right WikiMedia update) your solution using [[Template:IsNew]].  Even though it will require more frequent mainenance, it does offer the finer dependence upon yyyy-mm-dd that Rob asked about above.
 
 
 
I think the '''biggest question now''' is just how long do we want the "new" icon to remain on an edition - 12 months, 18 months, 24 months, or what?  The current setting for 12 months seems alright enough for me.
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|huh?]]</small></sup> 04:53, 14 July 2008 (PDT)|Perhaps we could opt for a trade-off between IsNew accuracy and its maintenance frequency: everytime a maintenance is done, IsNew would be set to test for 12 months behind and 6 months ahead. In the following six months, IsNew time range would grow from 12 to 18 months, until a new maintenance is done again. Another option is to set it to already test dates 2 years ahead from now, and every couple of months we'd only have to delete the trailing block of older dates (though I'm not sure whether the extra 365 x2 test entries would affect its performance). In order to make maintenance even simpler, I treated all months as having 31 days, since it doesn't affect IsNew results.
 
}}
 
 
 
==Testing a new set of Link templates==
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 17:47, 29 June 2008 (PDT)|2=Hi, I know it may sound a bit exagerated, but I started testing 3 new templates to deal with the linking of music files inside composer and score pages. They are <tt><nowiki>{{Link}}</nowiki></tt> (for external files), <tt><nowiki>{{LLink}}</nowiki></tt> (for local files hosted at ''cpdl.org'') and <tt><nowiki>{{LLinkAlt}}</nowiki></tt> (for local files hosted at ''wso.williams.edu''). Perhaps it would be better to have just one instead of three, but then I wouldn't be able to shrink the links well. All of them were temporarily applied to Palestrina's page, the differences can be checked [http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php?title=Giovanni_Pierluigi_da_Palestrina&diff=110127&oldid=109540 '''here''']. The advantages would be more simplicity in adding links and smaller page size. In the case of Palestrina, page size was reduced from 46kb to 32kb with them, almost 50%. Please again, have a look and say if it's something worth to keep developing or if it was just a silly idea of mine.
 
}}
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 22:04, 29 June 2008 (PDT)|
 
Great work, Carlos!  I would suggest that LLinkW (for Williams) is a shorter (hence better) name than LLinkAlt.  Also, the three "<tt>{{nbsp}}{{nbsp}}{{nbsp}}</tt>" are better replaced with "<tt> {{nbsp}} </tt>", and the only other {{nbsp}}'s should be immediately after the "(" and immediately before the closing ")" ... in other words, ''between'' each pair of items inside the "({{nbsp}}...{{nbsp}})" there should be just one ordinary space. Otherwise, I'm impressed by your work on shortening the Palestrina page ... and ultimately shortening the work of those of us who have to add stuff by hand.
 
 
 
As an additional comment, I would suggest replacing the "<tt>{{nbsp}}{{nbsp}}{{nbsp}}<nowiki>''2 editions available''</nowiki></tt>" with "<tt> - <nowiki>{{editions|2}}</nowiki></tt>" (and similarly for more editions) as a means of shortening the page, as well as making these additions uniform across the board at CPDL.
 
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small>|
 
Please see my comments on my talk page in reply to Chuck as to why I think using [[Template:Editions]] on composer pages as well as score pages is a bad idea.}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 02:03, 30 June 2008 (PDT)|... And see my reply/comments to Rob's comments on his talk page.
 
 
 
'''Edit:'''  Note that using the editions template on the Palestrina page has reduced its size from 32Kb to 29.5Kb.
 
}}
 
 
 
= Archived topics =
 
 
 
Topics included in an archive are listed below the archive name.  Click on the archive name to find the archived postings.
 
 
 
== [[ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues/Archive 3|Archive 3]] ==
 
  
 
* '''Lyricist template
 
* '''Lyricist template

Latest revision as of 03:42, 21 April 2014

CW:OI redirects here.

External Bulletin Board Upgraded

As the first action of the CPDL Transition Committee, the external Bulletin Board (aka "forums") has been upgraded and is now located at forums.cpdl.org/phpBB3. The upgrade should prevent the majority of spammers and solve posting problems. You can use your old login on the upgraded BB. The Bulletin board here at ChoralWiki will be active at least for the time being, so feel free to use either.

Documentation

Operation and implementation issues

This page is part of the ChoralWiki:Bulletin board.

Starting a new topic: Click on the [edit] link at the right of the General topics (most recent first) section and type

== <title of new topic> ==

at the beginning of a new line, below the comment line that reads "Start NEW TOPICS immediately below this line, ABOVE (BEFORE) any other topics." Then post your initial message as described below. Thus, a new topic will appear before (above) any other topics, to make for easier browsing. For example, typing

== Looking for works in Quenya ==

will start a new topic, appearing as:

Looking for works in Quenya[edit]

Starting new topics in the Announcements and special topics section should follow the same protocol, but such topics should only be started by CPDL Admins/Sysops.

When adding a message to an existing topic, simply click on the [edit] link at the right of the topic title and post your message below any previously posted message(s) on the topic as follows:

Posting a message (note NEW syntax): Start a new line, and use the Template:ItemPost in the format:

{{ItemPost
|by=<your name & date>
|text=<your message>
}}

The easiest way to sign and date your message is to type four tildes (~~~~) for <your name & date>. Thus, for example, typing

{{ItemPost
|by=~~~~
|text=
Here is a sample message
spread
over
several lines.<br>

It even has more than one paragraph.
}}

resulted in:

 Help 

Here is a sample message spread over several lines.

It even has more than one paragraph.

N.B. The old syntax for Template:ItemPost still works but is now deprecated in favor of the new syntax.

You can track the activity in this forum by adding this page to your Watchlist - simply click on the watch tab at the top of this page.

Announcements and special topics (most recent first)

CPDL transition

 Help 

Rafael Ornes, founder and manager of CPDL, is stepping back from an active role with CPDL. Initially, Raf has turned the operational responsibilities to bobnotts, Carlos, CHGiffen, and johnhenryfowler. Since then, we have enlisted a group of volunteers who have been active on CPDL to serve with us as a CPDL transition committee charged with working out a transition plan. This will cover back-ups and other key areas of operation, setting up a working mechanism for donations (multiple people mailed donation checks and had them returned), etc.

In addition to the above-mentioned users, the following users have agreed to serve on the Transtion committee: choralia, Arie Fokkens, and vaarky. These enlistees have already contributed greatly to our understanding of what we need to do and how we should go about doing it.

Of course, Rafael Ornes serves ex officio on the committee and will be of enormous help in working out the many details of operation and maintenance which he has managed single-handedly for so long.

If you have any questions or comments, or if you would like to offer assistance, please feel free to post here or contact one of us.

 Help 

As many of you may have already noticed from the Main Page, the old "forums" (external bulletin board) is back up and running. It is accessible at forums.cpdl.org/phpBB3. Members of the Transition committee should be advised that there is a (hidden) transition committee forum there which they will see when they login at the phpBB3.

Use of this forum

 Help 

This forum is for more techincal discussions of ChoralWiki implementation and operation at CPDL, primarily of interest to admins and others doing editing of pages at CPDL. Some topics of a more technical nature or involving CPDL policy from CPDL support, help, and feedback will be moved here.

General topics (most recent first)

New administrator

 Help 

We are happy to announce that User:Vaarky has been made a sysop (administrator) at CPDL who, at a crucial time for CPDL, has stepped up and made siginificant contributions both in terms of editing pages, organization at CPDL, and as a member of the Transition committee. We are very grateful for Vaarky's help and accepting a greater role here. Congratulations and welcome!

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 06:12, 8 September 2008 (PDT)
 Help 

Congratulations, Vaarky! Be very welcome to the administrative Board, and keep up the good work!

Reply by: Vaarky 15:49, 8 September 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Thanks! I've gotten so much out of CPDL--it's nice to be able to help out.

Proposal of a template for files externally hosted

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 01:50, 30 August 2008 (PDT)
 Help 

Hi everyone! Composer and contributor Adrian Cuello has just informed that his old website (http://www.audio.ya.com/adriancuello) is no longer available and all his externally hosted files (pdf's and midi's) will have to be redirected to a new site (http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es). This situation is quite common for contributors who host their editions in free servers and have to move elsewhere from time to time. My suggestion is that for these cases, editors used a template like this: {{website|Adrian_Cuello}}. Their links would look like

{{website|Adrian_Cuello}}Sonidos/aicamaraga.MID

instead of

http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/Sonidos/aicamaraga.MID

Whenever the editor had to move to another server, we'd make just one single change to Template:website instead of changing all pages he contributed. What do you all think?

Reply by: Vaarky 09:27, 30 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Good idea. Does the directory structure usually stay the same between the old site and new one?

Reply by:Carlos Email.gif 10:01, 30 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

That would have to be a task for the website owner. But I believe most webservers allow their users to create custom subdirectory structures when necessary.

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen 22:22, 30 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

I think this is an excellent idea, Carlos. And I think, in many cases at least, when a website is moved the directory substructure is indeed maintained.

One way to track the change (in case some hands-on maintenance is required) would be to have the template categorize pages on which it appears with a Category:Externally hosted, sortkey the same as the parameter passed to Template:Website (or Template:Exthost or Template:Webhost, either of which is a little less ambiguous sounding to me).

Reply by:Carlos Email.gif 04:16, 31 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Hey Chuck, I liked the names you suggested, Webhost or Exthost give indeed a better idea of what the template would do; which one do you prefer? The new category would also be very handy (it's a pity we can't make it "invisible", though). Should we also categorize these pages to Category:External links?

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen 00:33, 1 September 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Hi Carlos. I've made a first try at Template:Website and it works in principle, although, in Adrian Cuello's case tne new site rejects deep-linking directly to the PDFs and MIDIs. For example, the link

http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/partituras/aicamaraga.pdf

sends you to the page

http://www.fortunecity.com/referercheck/denial.jpg

But ... there is no problem with getting to http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/composiciones.htm which lists his compositions with links to PDFs (as above) and MIDIs that work when clicked this page.

This shows that, even though the directory structure is maintained in the website change, one might still encounter problems such as the current one which does not support deep-linking for PDFs and MIDIs.

Hence, at best (for Adrian Cuello) we shall have to replace the separate extpdf and extmid links with a single net link of the form

[{{website|Adrian Cuello}} {{net}}]
Network.png

This was accomplished by setting

|case Adrian Cuello=http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/composiciones.htm

in Template:Website. I had previously accessed the same page by setting

|case Adrian Cuello=http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/

and typing [{{website|Adrian Cuello}}composiciones.htm {{net}}], but incorporating compositiones.htm into the website case shortens what one has to type elsewhere.

I've not added categorizing the pages in Category:Exthost or Category:External links yet.

Reply by:Carlos Email.gif 07:31, 2 September 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Hi Chuck, thanks for giving the initial steps and creating the template. I had been able to deep-link to Adrian's files, but I guess it was because I had opened his page first and had already the necessary cookies set. When I tried again later, I had the same problem as you. Your idea to include the whole web address in the template is perfect. I'll write Adrian to let him know that a solution is under way.

Changes to the Requests: namespace

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 17:17, 29 August 2008 (PDT)
 Help 

After a lot of research, I finally was able to find out why Requests: pages didn't accept talk pages (clicking on the "talk" link would erroneously create a score page instead): a relatively simple 1-line variable setting was missing from LocalSettings.php and is now included. Now all Request talk pages can be created and edited normally, and searched via the combo box namespaces list.

And since I was at it, I also renamed the "Requests:" namespace to the singular form "Request:", to comply with the standard followed by all other namespaces. Just by renaming it, all pages in this namespace were automatically renamed too. So now instead of Requests:Vago augelletto (Claudio Monteverdi), we have Request:Vago augelletto (Claudio Monteverdi). This renaming can be easily undone, in case the other admins disagree. The changes made to LocalSettings.php were:

(before)

$wgExtraNamespaces = 
        array ( 100 => "Requests",
              );

(after)

$wgExtraNamespaces = 
        array ( 100 => "Request",
                101 => "Request_talk" );

Classification of solo works as Bass, Baritone, Tenor, Countertenor, Alto, Soprano solos

 Help 

Using the low note/high note specification for an edition I need to know what makes a work have a particular voicepart's solo designation. Need the same definitions for LOW, MEDIUM,and HIGH Voice. ie. Range: B3 - E♭5 Does this make it Tenor solo ? Bass solo ?
Postscript: I found this Wikipedia article on vocal range which has proposed ranges, and some obvious mistakes which I have fixed:

Basic Choral Ranges:
---------------------
Soprano C4 - A5
Mezzo-Soprano: G3 - F5
Alto: E3 - E5
Counter-Tenor: G3 - F5
Tenor: D3 - A4
Baritone: G2 - G4
Bass: E2 - E4
---------------------

Perhaps a diagram like this might help:


g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g 
1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6
          |           |     |     |   |     |       |     |
     Bass |-----------|-----|-----|---|     |       |     |
                      |     |     |         |       |     |
                Tenor |-----|-----|---------|       |     |
                            |     |                 |     |
                       Alto |-----|-----------------|     |
                                  |                       |
                           Soprano|-----------------------|

Johnhenryfowler 01:08, 5 August 2008 (PDT)

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen 08:05, 5 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

I have slightly shrunk the range that John originally displayed (which went 6 octaves), from C1 to C7. And, because the Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass range indicators did not appear in his original, I made a few edits to make them appear. The original ranges that John gives have been preserved.

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 02:56, 5 August 2008 (PDT)
 Help 

John, there's something wrong with these ranges: Mezzo's high note A6 is higher than Soprano's C6! The same happens with Baritone's lower note A3, which is higher than Tenor's C3. Perhaps you made this confusion by thinking that the scale begins in A, when in fact it begins in C (...F0,A0,B0,C1,D1,E1,F1,G1,A1,B1,C2... etc.)

 Help 

Carlos, I did make that mistake. I've fixed it. What would you suggest for the ranges of Mezzo, Counter-Tenor, Baritone ? Does the above look correct now ?

Reply by:Carlos Email.gif 14:07, 5 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Hi John, I am a tenor, so I can speak of my voice type: The tenors that I know which have the most limited range can still sing with no effort between C3 and G4. Those with wider range can sing as low as A2 and as high as A4 (my own range is G#2 to A4). Sorry for not being able to help with the other voices, I could ask my conductor later, she'll know it for sure.

 Help 

The vocal ranges given above are to be construed as choral ranges, not solo ranges. There is another important Wikipedia article on voice type which is more thorough and includes a discussion of solo vocal ranges.

In solo singing, one must take into account not just vocal range, but also tessitura, vocal weight, and timbre - and these combine to determine the voice types for solo voices. A singer's tessitura is where the voice has the best timbre (vocal quality or "color"), easy volume, and most comfort. For example, a soprano and a mezzo-soprano may have almost identical vocal ranges, but have tessituras that lie in different parts of the range (the soprano having the higher tessitura).

Here are typical vocal ranges (and typical extremes for soloists):

  • Soprano: (A3 or B3) C4 — A5 (C6 or D6; some coloraturas to F6, G6 or even A6)
  • Mezzo-soprano: (G3) A3 — G5 or A5 (B6 or C6)
  • Contralto (alto is really the wrong term for soloists): (E3 or F3) G3 &mdash: G5 (A5 or even B-flat5)
  • Countertenor: (G3) A3 — E5 (F5 or even higher for a Sopranist)
  • Tenor: (A2 or B2) C3 — C5 or D5 (E5 or F5)
  • Baritone: (F2 or G2) A2 — F4 (G4 or A4)
  • Bass: (C2 or D2) E2 or F2 — C4 or E4 (F4)
note that Basso profundo and Russian bass ranges may be even lower, as far down as B-flat1 or A1)

These are by no means authoritative, and indeed, both the New Harvard Dictionary of Music and the Grove Music Online ranges vary somewhat from my list above and the list John gives. John's and these last two ranges are probably intended to define typical choral vocal ranges.

For High, Medium, and Low voicings (ordinarily not gender specific, the female range being an octave above the male range), typical ranges might be:

  • High female (male): B3 or C4 — G5 or A5 (B2 or C3 — G4 or A4)
  • Medium female (male): G3 or A3 — E5 or F5 (G2 or A2 — E4 or F4)
  • Low female (male): E3 or F3 — C5 or D5 (E2 or F2 — C4 or D4)

Indeed these are good norms for choral vocal ranges, as well, corresponding to traditional Soprano (Tenor), Mezzo (Baritone), Alto (Bass) voices. Excursions outside these ranges call for special singers and/or special circumstances (such as large chorus in the case of choral ranges). Furthermore, composers often choose vocal ranges that suit the voices they have at hand (or ranges that they are fond of). For example, I have written more than my share of choral bass parts that extend down to D2 or up to E4, choral soprano parts that extend down to A3. Or, Haydn's Thereseinmesse has choral bass parts that extend from D2 up to F4! It seems that even in classical times, there was little limit to using extreme vocal ranges, even for choral music.

The period of solo vocal music also probably is important. For example, here are the bass solos from Messiah and their ranges:

  • Thus saith the Lord: C3 — D4
  • But who may abide (16A): A2 — F4
  • For behold, darkness shall cover the earth: A2 — D4
  • The people that walked in darkness: F-sharp2 — E4
  • Thou art gone up on high: C3 — E4
  • Why do the nations: B2 — E4
  • Behold, I tell you a mystery: A2 — D4
  • The trumpet shall sound: A2 — E4

With the exception of The people... the ambitus (range), collectively, is: A2 — E4. This is well within the solo baritone range and (except for The people...) even in the (low extended) tenor solo range. It is largely because of tessitura that these are considered bass solos by most people (even though they are often sung by baritones or bass-baritones).

As for John's example with ambitus B3 — E-flat5 is, on vocal range alone, probably best classified as baritone solo, although many tenors and basses could also sing it. The real question, though, is a matter of tessitura, vocal weight, and timbre required of the solo - and for these one must consult the score directly, carefully.

  • Posted by: Ebykm 18:03, 5 August 2008 (PDT)
 Help 

Excellent one Chuck, do you think we should put vocal range indicators in new scores?.

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Nice job, Chuck. In the short term I would like to add vocal ranges to the 200 cross-posted scores I just completed from "Art Song Central". Luckily Dave Newman has included the ranges, so it will be straightforward to add them. Putting in the Bass Solo, Tenor Solo, ..., High, Medium, Low categories will not be straightforward without a definition for each. This category information will allow these songs to be searched for by voice type, which I think is a nice addition to CPDL's functionality. We just need to decide how to do it before I embark on editing each of the 200 works pages to include Ranga and solo categories.

Reply by: Vaarky 06:52, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

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One quick procedural suggestion--should the topic title be updated to reflect that this is now focusing on choral ranges as well as solos? Those people following the Recent Changes log would reasonably think this is still about soloist ranges. I posted some comments in the page JHF created for visually showing vocal ranges before realizing it was based on discussion here.

Here's my experience about soprano ranges. In modern choral music, it is not uncommon for non-soloist sopranos in choral works to have to go up to high B (Frank Martin's double-chorus mass) or high C (Sandstrom's Hear My Prayer, Oh Lord); in January, I attended a recording gig where the second sopranos in the chorus all had to sing high C and the first sopranos in the chorus were asked to sing high E! In modern editions of Renaissance scores, most editors transpose to avoid going above a high G, since it's difficult for many singers to go higher if they're trying to keep to a Renaissance sounds. It varies significantly by the style of music.

Ideally, I'd love to see actual range (c4-g5) if there were a way to search within a range: e.g. song contains maximum of two parts with upper range less than or equal to g5, lower range greater than or equal to C4, no more than one part in the range X-to-Y, etc. One possible approach to indicating standard range versus special range would be to use something like S for the usual soprano range, and S' or some other marking if the soprano needs to go higher or lower than the usual range. Would something like this be workable to indicate when special forces are required?

Editor/contributor names

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In this edit I changed the contributor's name in a score entry added by John Henry Fowler from "Resneck" to "IMSLP". As some of you will be aware, IMSLP doesn't require contributors to give their real names, instead the scanner's username is listed. I have previously changed "Feldmahler" to "Edward W. Guo" as this is the name given on his user page, however, Resneck doesn't list his/her name. I think in the future, where a person's real name cannot be obtained, we should have the name of the resource that they contributed to in the first place. This only refers to when anyone but the editor or contributor adds the work to CPDL. I'm going away tomorrow but I'm sure the community will make the right decision on this without any further input from me.

Franz Schubert

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Is Franz Schubert in the category "Classical composer", "Romantic composer", or both ? Currently his composer page is classified as both, and the various works pages are 50/50 Classical music/Romantic music.

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 04:34, 1 August 2008 (PDT)
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Hi John, as you know it's not uncommon to have composers who lived in a transition period between two styles (as for example Monteverdi and Beethoven) and who composed in both "old" and "new" styles or in a blend of both. This may be the case of Schubert, and hence his composer page cites both categories. As for his works, they would have to be analyzed one by one to decide toward which style they tend more, though this is a somewhat subjective choice.

The Wikipedia article about him says the following:

"While he was clearly influenced by the Classical sonata forms of Mozart and Beethoven (his early works, among them notably the 5th Symphony, are particularly Mozartean), his formal structures and his developments tend to give the impression more of melodic development than of harmonic drama. This combination of Classical form and long-breathed Romantic melody sometimes lends them a discursive style. His harmonic innovations include movements in which the first section ends in the key of the subdominant rather than the dominant. Schubert's practice here was a forerunner of the common Romantic technique of relaxing, rather than raising, tension in the middle of a movement, with final resolution postponed to the very end."
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In fact, Wikipedia also categorizes Schubert both as a Classical composer and as a Romantic composer. As another example, Wikipedia classifies Gustav Mahler both as a 20th century classical composer and as a Romantic composer, which should come as no surprise to those who know Mahler's music. Even Arnold Schoenberg (for example, in the earlier parts of his monumental oratorio Gurre-Lieder) wrote in the Romantic music idiom before turning to atonality later.

Aria Music sub-category

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Can we add "Aria" to ChoralWiki:Music Subcategories? It is already in use, but not listed there. And can we use overall category "Solo" to contain works of all the various solo categories? (ie/ Lieder, Art song, etc, etc ...) As you know searching for the string "1v" would list all the solo works, but searches for strings of 3 characters or less don't work in Wikiland, so using a category to help this makes sense.

While we are at it, why does everything belong to "Category: Sheet music" ?

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Last things first. Not everything belongs to Sheet music - only score/works pages with CPDL editions on them do. And for each edition with {{NewWork|2008-08-01}} appearing on it (note, it's today's date), that page will appear on ChoralWiki:2008-08-01 Scores by virtue of it being in both the "Sheet music" and "2008-08-01" categories. This is because the code that generates this listing is a DPL (Dynamic Page Listing) - take a look at the code if you're interested. Without the "Sheet music" and date categories, you would not see the scores listed under "Most recent scores" on the Main Page. The easiest way to think of "Sheet music" is that it is for pages that have complete edition information on them.

Now on to Solos. As presently understood, Solo [link removed - category now deleted] is an obsolete subcategory of Solo vocal music, and works in that subcategory are supposed to be recategorized in an appropriate subcategory of "Solo vocal music", such as Solo medium, Solo Soprano, etc. If you want to do a search for all solos, you could search on the keyword "solo" (which, conveniently and unlike "1vv" or the correct "1v", is a word with more than three characters) - or even "solo baritone" if, say, you wanted to hunt for baritone solos (but simply going to Solo Baritone would be much easier and not yield so many extraneous hits.

Note that Solo vocal music lists only voicings for various kinds of "standalone" solo music (ie. without chorus), including duets, trios, etc. There is a separate but corresponding Choral solo music category for voicings of solos that do appear within a choral texture or choral movement.

Now, for Arias. As for "Christmas", there are two kinds - secular and sacred. And the current Arias category contains both types, which is unfortunate, since this appears as a subcategory of Secular music. Indeed, we should have two categories Secular arias and Sacred arias. Note, we do already have Sacred songs, but (aside from many of these being for chorus/choir with or without solos) I think that is analogous to Lieder vs. Art songs, or Anthems vs. Motets, or Hymns vs. Chorales. Do we make a change to two categories? ... I don't know. I will at least list "Arias" under Seculular music on ChoralWiki:Music Subcategories, since they already appear as a subcategory of "Secular music". I would suggest that we need to reach a decision soon (better than later) and recategorize arias appropriately if we go with the two flavors of aria categories.

I hope these explanations help and that people will add their thoughts.

Contact with Rafael Ornes

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Rafael Ornes, founder and manager of CPDL since its inception has recently replied to an e-mail which I sent earlier today (cc also to Robert Nottingham, Carlos Augusto Mourão, and John Henry Fowler, all of us sysops/admins at CPDL). In addition, Raf and I had a very cordial and informative telephone conversation about an hour and a half ago, in which he told me that he had sent the e-mail reply to me and the above admins, as well as expanding upon some of the information in the e-mail.

The main thrust of his message is that he has been considering turning over all elements of CPDL for many months, having become too inundated by work and family obligations to manage CPDL properly. The backlog for him has grown to the point that he was been unable to do much more than reply to some direct support emails and do absolutely required backups and mainenance.

This has been a very trying realization for Raf to arrive at, and, after almost 10 years of managing CPDL, he feels a deep sorrow over having to let it go.

Raf is giving Carlos and me the necessary login/access information for the CPDL webserver. He commends the active group of admins for working together extremely well. He has offered to help us out and is glad not to have the great pressure overseeing such a large and vital endeavor as CPDL. In our conversation by phone, Raf suggested that we might consider forming some sort of managing committee to do the many things necessary to address current needs of CPDL, such as upgrading the MediaWiki software and extensions, as well as managing the MySQL database directly. I wish to consult with all admins (at least the active ones) as soon as possible, so that we might quickly come to agreement on how best to do all this. We will do everything possible to maintain CPDL, enhance it, and preserve the legacy that Rafael has given to choral musicians through CPDL.

I know many of you will be variously affected by this news. Personally, although I am relieved that we have some guidance and direction in which to proceed, it is with a deep sense of compassion, appreciation, and respect for my friend Raf that I am also saddened by his needing to step back. My best wishes and prayers are with him and his family.

  • Posted by: Choralia 16:02, 24 July 2008 (PDT)
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I think these news are very positive for CPDL, even though it's sad that Raf needs to step back. You sysops/admins can count on me as an IT professional as well as to contribute to the budget that may be required to run the operations of CPDL.

As a sign of appreciation for everything Raf did for CPDL, I would propose to highlight his name in the home page, e.g. by adding a "Founder: Rafael Ornes" on the top of the page, or something like that.

Max

  • Posted by: Vaarky 21:41, 26 July 2008 (PDT)
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Great idea! I've found myself mentioning CPDL and the Internet alongside penicillin when commenting that it's a great time to be alive. Although it's unfortunate that Rafael doesn't have time to remain actively involved, having some definiteness around his role may help pave the way for other admins to move projects along that were on hold.

Worth updating ChoralWiki:Contact_CPDL with updated phone or e-mail contact info. I flagged it for Cleanup but I'm not sure if someone reads each one or if it waits for volunteers to go through it when they have time--apologies if ths is redundant.

Proposal to eliminate file sizes from works pages

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Putting in the file size of PDF, MIDI and Source files represents a lot of additional time and bother. Only when the file size is over 100 meg is it really helpful to the user. Bob has suggested that we omit this information, and has started removing the "200 Kb." estimates on my recent postings, which means I can't search and replace this information in the future. I therefore will be omitting file sizes in future postings. This will make Bobs editing job easier, and eliminate the need to update the estimates to real file sizes in the future.

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 15:26, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
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In general I agree with you, John, file size is no longer a very useful information nowadays when everybody has broadband. I think that leaving just page format (A4/Letter) and number of pages will suffice.

CPDL.org donations address still valid?

  • Posted by: Vaarky 17:58, 22 July 2008 (PDT)
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I mailed a check in April. The post office returned it to me with a yellow label over it saying "Return to Sender, not deliverable as addressed, unable to forward."

The address matches. Has the address changed? Should I resend?

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Hi Vaarky. Thank you very much for your generosity and desire to donate to CPDL. Unfortunately, Raf Ornes is currently not involved in the project except when he is absolutely required to be (eg. the crash last year). If you want to get in touch, I suggest you email him, but don't hold out for a reply as he seems to have no time even to reply to emails these days. I have commented out the address on the ChoralWiki:Site support page for the moment, until Raf updates us with a new address. Again, thanks for your donation and I'm sorry that we can't accept it at this time.

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Does this problem above signal the end of CPDL as we know it some time in the future ? Is anyone else concerned? It seems we are busy with arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Can't we fix the Bulletin Board system, the "Add Score" script, update the Wiki software, and now we can't accept contributions ? Our work on CPDL is just a crashed disk away from total destruction if no one is steering the ship...

  • Posted by: Choralia 05:47, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
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I had the same experience, with my check returned, and I'm very worried about the future of CPDL. An action is in progress by a couple of CPDL administrators to get in touch with Raf. If this attempt does not succeed, I think we should contact the administrator of the server farm where CPDL is hosted, and ascertain that back-ups are regularly made, and somebody can restore them in the case of need. My phpBB3 back-up bulletin board is always available for whoever wants to use it, and it may act as a contact point for our admins should CPDL collapse (that will make this wiki version collapse as well.

  • Posted by: ?Carlos Email.gif 15:01, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
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As Choralia said, an attempt was made to contact Raf Ornes 9 days ago, during the spambot attacks (more about it below, under "Administrative remedies ... "). We emailed Raf through 3 different email accounts (CPDL's, personal Gmail and even his Church email) and still no reply. He seems to have shifted his priorities towards other projects lately, and I'm trying to figure out what exactly this will mean for the future of CPDL.

  • Posted by: Vaarky 15:33, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
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I did e-mail Rafael back then but got no reply.

FWIW, I think the biggest priority (in addition to reaching him) would be to take a snapshot of CPDL and, ideally, the external score pages that are linked by it too (and then set up periodic updates to the back-ups to stay current).

My husband (I can provide further details in e-mail) is willing to take this on if the admins can provide:
1. consent (required);
2. a sense of the total size (ideally) and what rate of download would avoid causing problems;
3. guidance where possible to avoid reinventing the wheel (he's used MediaWiki but not administered it on a server);
4. a login on the server if that improves things.

Additionally, I'm willing to put up funds to underwrite a different hosting solution if needed (up to the low 4-digits $US per year for at least 5 years) if I can't talk an ISP I know into sponsoring hosting it on their site (they've sponsored projects I've been involved with in the past--I can provide details via e-mail about the ISP as well.

Please drop me a note if you'd like to discuss my husband's info/credentials or the ISP. I just don't want those aspects Googleable if I can avoid it.

Request for extension to Template:Editor

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I've just been updating O magnum mysterium (Tomás Luis de Victoria) with the names of the editors from Mutopia (see http://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/piece-info.cgi?id=244) who have edited this work. Unfortunately, the Editor template cannot take more than one editor in its current state. Would it be possible for someone to extend it in the same manner as Template:Language? I would but it takes me a while to get my head round template code and I know other people are better at it :-)

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It's done, Rob! Check the new syntaxes on the template page: Template:Editor. I already applied it to O magnum mysterium as a test.

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Thanks a lot, Carlos. That's a great help.

LilyPond icons

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I came across this page whilst doing some spam reverting and noticed a few LilyPond icons (Icon_ly.gif) in place of the usual text "LilyPond". What do people think about adopting this icon universally and adding it to the Legend? I've just created Template:extly which outputs an icon with the globe (Icon_ly_ext.png) for LilyPond files hosted externally. I figure, the more icons and less text on score and composer pages, the better.

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Hi Rob, I never thought about this before, might be a good idea. The icons for the PDF and MIDI files are quite obvious and universally recognized. I just wonder if people visiting score pages won't be a bit confused at first with icons they don't know yet (I suppose we'd adopt icons for the other sources too, as Sibelius, Encore etc.?), but as soon as they look at the Legend everything would be clear. The ideal would be if we could make the tooltip (that appears when we drag the mouse over the icons) show the program name instead of the link that it shows now.

Archived topics

Topics included in an archive are listed below the archive name. Click on the archive name to find the archived postings.

Archive 3

  • Administrative remedies to mitigate current (July 08) spam storm?
  • Category:New works added to Template:NewWorks
  • Testing a new set of Link templates
  • Lyricist template
  • Semi-automation now available
  • 'New template - copyright warning
  • How should we handle entries for composite works, where two separate "works" are in the same file
  • How should we handle entries for the second editor
Moved to ChoralWiki:CPDL support, help, and feedback#How should we handle entries for the second editor

Archive 2

  • Nomination for adminship
  • Moving to the new BBS system
  • Add brass to accompaniment cat?
  • New template for formatting of credits in Translations section
  • Uniform sort keys for categorization templates on sheet music pages
  • New add works form

Archive 1

  • Discontinuation of Village pump
  • Making text-translations pages into categories
  • List of current CPDL problems
Moved here from CPDL support, help, and feedback
  • Should we consider setting up a mirror site?
Moved here from CPDL support, help, and feedback