Template talk:MultiPubList

Codes for instrumentation & subgenres

It would be nice to have a code for instr., preferably displaying the argument in Template:Instruments rather than linked categories only ("2 violins" instead of "string ensemble").

Many works have several subgenres, usually from broadest to narrowest: can the last one be favored so one gets "Vesper Psalm" instead of the less specific "motet"? Richard Mix (talk) 18:09, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

I will add a code for instruments; it will display the template parameter value. Some of these are long (longer than they should be), and those may have to be edited to fit the MultiPubList table. About subgenres, displaying the last subgenre can be done (I think) but it may not be a good idea, because some editors didn't use the "broadest to narrowest" concept. Showing the last subgenre may go against editor intentions in those cases. Showing all subgenres might be too long for the table, do you think? I may experiment with this a bit. — Barry Johnston (talk) 14:41, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

An experimental version of MultiPubList is available at {{MultiPubList5}}, that adds "instr" as a possible table column. Experiment with this, and let me know if that's what you're looking for. In the first publication I looked at, one of the instrument parameter values was too long, I had to edit it to fit the table. Obviously, try to be as efficient as possible in these parameters, and save the discussion for the Description section. — Barry Johnston (talk) 15:18, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I applied it to Selva morale e spirituale (Claudio Monteverdi) which looks good to me now: The devotional madrigals may be non-liturgical but Sacred/secular didn't seem useful, nor did the year. I can get useful subgenres by (for example) putting "Vesper Psalm" before "Motet", but it still seems a lot easier to have the template start from the right-edge.

I don't think the instruments field should be oversimplified just for the sake of one template, but we could start standardizing things like bc &c. Where voicings a separated by a comma the word "or" is useful; I haven't seen yet what goes on with pipings like AAB|MzMzBar. Richard Mix (talk) 19:34, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree with your words about "oversimplifying" instruments field; but surely "Violino I and II, Viola I and II (or Trombone I and II), Bass Trombone (or Violoncello), Continuo" can be treated like others in this same publication, to "2 violins, 2 violas (or trombones), bass trombone, basso continuo". Voicing is more difficult, right now there is only one template parameter for each column: for "vo" that is Voicing:1 and for "voices" that is Voicing:2. If the work uses MultiVoicing, a blank appears in the table. For Subgenre, I added a code "subg2" that shows the second Subgenre – notice that in the example you are working with (Selva morale e spirituale (Claudio Monteverdi)) one of the works has the subgenres reversed from the others. Following are some examples; there is very great variation in how subgenres are applied. In this situation, it is difficult to automatically pick which one is better – and it would take a considerable effort to correct this.

  — Barry Johnston (talk) 01:23, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, not very pretty having Alleluia verse appear in differing columns, is it? I actually can't think of any pages that don't put Motets first (except for Dixit Dominus II (Claudio Monteverdi) which I deliberately tampered with as an experiment with this template) and it's only "Subgenre last" that usually interests me. Motet is a not terribly descriptive term that is nonetheless sometimes useful in multi-category searches; I once half jocularly defined it as anything User:Varky would approve of.

Another code to consider might be the seasonal categories. Richard Mix (talk) 06:36, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Here's the complete report:  . See, there are 44 with Motet in Subgenre-2, two in -3, and two in the Genre column! This is quite a mess (and I have corrected misspellings etc.). In addition, the {{Genre}} template allows a "sort" parameter, which I have left out of my report; there are hundreds of works that have used this parameter. I don't see any way to standardize Subgenre, and I'm pretty sure such an effort would be met with a lot of kickback. I will check into seasonal categories, but at first glance it would require a complete redesign of the code. — Barry Johnston (talk) 17:00, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

In showing the design of a publication there will always be different things that are relevant. Monteverdi 1641 has ingredients for Vespers: Psalms, (Office) Hymns, Canticles and 'motets' that may or may not be intended as Antiphon/Magnificat Antiphon substitutes. Offertoria totius anni (Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina) is devoted to a single genre and only seasons and dates are of prime interest. Choralis Constantinus (Heinrich Isaac) has many possible sortings, it not being unforeseeable that we might have single editions of entire propria missae as well as individual propers. I organized Iubilus beatæ virginis, hoc est centum Magnificat with an eye to browsing for the mode matching the Magnificat Antiphon for a particular day, as well as number of vv.

Of course I agree that guessing at a value for "code N" is a waste of time; is it a challenge to get the last one? I can't tell from your summary whether any page lists "Introit" before "Motet", but if it's as rare as I think there's probably no need to worry about standardizing. Richard Mix (talk) 20:13, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to get the last subgenre; it's going to be difficult, I think. I will try when I get time. Unfortunately, sometimes calling the last one will yield something like "sort=Croft, William". Works that have something before Motet:

Anthems - Motets (2) Antiphons - Motets (4) Chants - Motets (2) Chorales - Motets (6) Communions - Motets (1)

Eucharistic Songs - Motets (6) Graduals - Motets (2) Hymns - Motets (5) Introits - Motets (1) Lieder - Motets (1)

Madrigals - Motets (1) Mass propers - Motets (9) Office hymns - Motets (5) Responsories - Motets (1)

In all these cases (as well as many others) it seems the first field is better. After reading your discussion "In showing the design…", I feel these concerns are better addressed in a manual list – it's going to be difficult to automate, at least the way things are organized now. I spent a lot of time designing MultiPubList – but I am happy to accommodate small improvements. I need to learn Perl, because dealing with such issues at the MediaWiki level is difficult. — Barry Johnston (talk) 22:51, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Ah well, that's a shame. Manual lists seem to have greater flexibility, but I much appreciate that the template can be customized, omitting the clutter of "yr,gen,subg,vo," from books with a single printing devoted to a single subgenre & no. of voices like Offertoria totius anni (Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina) for example, and if it were applied to the other JBV page one might see at a glance in what year-order Mag. primi toni [I], Mag. primi toni II, and Mag. primi toni III were originally published.

A manual list I didn't give enough forethought to is Sortable list of Josquin des Prez compositions, based on the order of publication in Smijers and a bear to edit. I've been tempted to start afresh, possibly with new tools. Richard Mix (talk) 01:47, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Sequence

Isn't there something wrong here? At Neue Teutsche Gesang (Hans Leo Hassler) if I click on sort by "No." (sequence rather than no. of voices; the template documentation really needs 3 columns) I get: 1, 13, 23, 3 …, not really what I was expecting! Richard Mix (talk) 05:10, 23 October 2019 (UTC)