ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues/Archive 2

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This page archives topics from the Bulletin board forum Operation and implementation issues

Archive 2

New template "CompCatTxt"

  • Posted by: Bobnotts talk 09:28, 25 May 2008 (PDT)
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I've just finished categorising all Dowland score pages under Category:John Dowland compositions and created the category. As there are likely to be many of these categories in created in the future, I think it's necessary to have a set text for the category - a template seemed the best way to go about this so I created Template:CompCatTxt. The template currently has 2 required variables, 1=Composer's first and any middle names 2=Composer's surname. I did this for the category sort key. I considered making a third variable for some alternative text for the second sentance of the template's text, eg. For an alternative list ordered by {{{3}}}, see [[{{{1}}} {{{2}}}]]. The alternaitve text would be "genre" or "publication date" etc. What does everyone else think about a third variable? By the way, the ItemPost template doesn't seem to be able to handle this code which is why I haven't used it...

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen 05:59, 12 September 2008 (PDT)

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We have now upgraded the Template:CompCatTxt to accept two optional parameters.

The optional parameter sort=<sortmethod> inserts a phrase that tells the user the corresponding composer page has works sorted by <sortmethod>.

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Quoting from the previous post: "By the way, the ItemPost template doesn't seem to be able to handle this code which is why I haven't used it..."

The problem with Template:ItemPost occurs when you type an equal sign ("=") inside the template... something like

I think all this = baloney.

For then, the template thinks that everything before the = is a parameter (even if not declared in the template definition) and that everything after it is what is being passed to the parameter. I enclosed both of Rob's = signs within nowikis, and put his post (above) inside the ItemPost template which now works properly. I had run into this problem ("bug") before but forgot to mention it until now.

Nomination for adminship

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I'd like to formally nominate Carlos for adminship. Carlos has put a lot of work into CPDL over the past 4-5 months including welcoming newcomers, providing texts and translations, correcting mistakes and doing some admin related tasks including merging and moving pages. He has shown a clear undertanding of the wiki framework of the site, he has good musical knowledge and a couple of languages other than English up his sleeve. He has also adapted to the weird and wonderful (and mostly undocumented) practices here. I believe he has earned the community's trust and should be made an admin (sysop) for these reasons. Please state your opinions below and we will come to a consensus on whether or not to make Carlos an admin in due course.

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Wow, thank you guys, this nomination is quite an honor for me! Whatever be the community's decision, I'll continue to gladly contribute to this wonderful site!

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Rob already knows my feelings are definitely and strongly in favor of Carlos/Carlos becoming an admin here at CPDL. I had raised the matter with Rob in an earlier exchange of emails, and since then Carlos has continued his excellent service and more than earned our trust that he will prove to be a capable sysop. I would hope that we can reach a consensus before the end of this month.

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I vote to elect Carlos to position of Admin/SysOp for CPDL. Welcome Carlos !

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I have just made Carlos (User:Carlos) a Sysop, since there have been no objections or reservations expressed to his nomination. Please join with me in congratulating Carlos for a continuiung job well-done. We look forward to his contintued devotion and service to CPDL as an Administrator.

Aside to Carlos: Now you can delete pages instead of having to request their deletion!! *smiles*

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Thank you, Chuck and all! I was editing a page and all of a sudden a lot of new "options" appeared, lol. Later will have to ask you what some of those are meant for. ;-)

PS: Next round of beer is on me!!

Moving to the new BBS system

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We have a workable BBS system at

   http://choralia.altervista.org/phpbb/

Which I think we should transition to. The current system does not encourage new users, and even though we "Techies" can make use of it I don't think it is a good permanant solution. Certainly the current pink announcement box could send users to the above resource. Currently to find "new posts" I have to find edits in the "Recent Changes" list, and go to the modified page. With the very slow load times we are now experienceing this process takes a lot of time, and I find I "read" new posts much less frequently than I used to. Consequently I don't help new users much because to the inadaquacy of the current system. What do other CPDL users and admins think ?

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I agree with you, John; in fact this forum is not very much newbie-friendly, and as it shares the same platform with CPDL, in case of a server failure we'd lose contact with each other. But would we have to create a new account to access this new BBS?

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You sign up just the way to signed up to use the "forum" BBS. It's also much faster than trying to read messages here, and you can tell which posts are new and unread. It makes sense to use it ASAP.

  • Posted by: --Choralia 17:06, 16 May 2008 (PDT)
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I agree, of course. I just wonder if someone has admin access rights onto the "traditional" phpBB2 forum, so that he can possibly add a link or even re-direct the phpBB2 forum to the new phpBB3 forum. I think this would facilitate the migration of the users.

  • Posted by: Choralia 06:37, 30 July 2008 (PDT)
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The phpBB3 forum has been deleted. Its home page (http://choralia.altervista.org/phpbb/) now re-directs to the Wiki-based BB, for consistency with the similar link recently modified on the "old" phpBB2 forum.

Add brass to accompaniment cat?

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I've just come across this score Psalm 100 - Jauchzet dem Herrn (Johann Pachelbel) and I wondered if we should add "Brass ensemble" to the accompaniment list & add appropriate templates etc?

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Good idea! I just created and added Brass accompaniment to Accompaniment and made the template {{BrassAcc}} (with optional sortkey parameter 9) to facilitate listing and adding the new category to the Instruments fields of relevant works. The default form in which this template appears is "Brass ensemble". Sorry it took so long, but I have been inundated of late.

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Thanks, Chuck. I've updated the page in question.

New template for formatting of credits in Translations section

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I was trying to find a simple way to format the credits line in the translations section and came up with this little template By. I used it as a test in Ay mi Dios (Pedro de Cristo), please have a look inside and say if you like the results. A few examples on how to use it can be found on the template's page. I bring it now to public appreciation for opinions whether to use it or not. Thanks

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I think this is a good idea but I think it would be better if it were integrated into Template:Translation and we had "user" as the default option, not the exception. Also, I think it's worth discussing 2 broader issues to do with translations on CPDL:

  1. Should translators be credited? Anybody can come in and make major edits to them - how far are they still the work of one person? Wikis are about collaboration, so indicating ownership of work is something of a backwards step. The exception to this is, of course, the main aim of this site - editions. Editors are listed for them, I hear you cry. Well - I think this is an exception because the files cannot be edited by anyone at all, just the editor.
  2. Should pages with translations be categorised as having them? At the moment, the category Category:Texts-translations only accounts for texts added...

What does everyone think?

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Hi Rob, your suggestion of integrating it with the Translation template is nice indeed. As for having "User" as the default, that was my initial idea, but I decided to invert its logic because I thought that perhaps text comments would be more common than usernames. Now the broader issues:

1. I have thought about this a few times, without coming to a conclusion. I even started removing my credits from a few pages, but then turned back. I think the main reason for having the credits is for us to be able to contact the translators and discuss with them any detail of their translation. On the other side, I've also made minor changes to other's translations (usually in punctuation, but sometimes even changing a word for another I consider to better represent the meaning) without contacting them, and wouldn't mind having my own translations being modified by others (if for better! :).

2. That's another point I was going to discuss with Chuck in near future; I too noticed that the translations weren't being listed on Category:Texts-translations, and was going to propose him the creation of Category:Translations (by language) just as there is for Category:Texts (by language). I definitely think translations should have their own category.

Uniform sort keys for categorization templates on sheet music pages

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I've begun converting (typically optional) sort key parameters for categorization templates on sheet music pages to a uniform parameter 9. Previously, such sort key parameters had various numbers (usually 2, 3 or 4). I reckon that it is much easier to remember just one choice that works for all such templates than to have to remember all the variations (or check the template code/documentation itself).

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Excellent initiative, Chuck! I saw how confusing adding sort keys can be when I was editing ¿Qué pasa ó redor de min? (Adrian Cuello): for Composer, Pcat and Text templates it was the 3rd parameter; for Lang and Language, the 9th; for Acap the 2nd and so on. :) Having just one parameter number to remember will tremendously simplify things. Thanks!

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Glad you like it. I'll get to all the other templates that go on sheet music pages as soon as I can. Fortunately, it is not difficult to identify those relatively few instances where the old sort key was used and change them manually.

New add works form

Some comments moved here from User talk:Bobnotts#Add New Works form

  • Posted by: Arie 02:10, 1 May 2008 (PDT)
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Hi Robert,

I'm still working working on the form and the results, and I'm a bit puzzled how to 'render' part of larger work. Should it come directly under the title? e.g.
Title: Just a title, Op. 65, No. 7
Part of: Larger work, Op. 65

Also I don't know what to do with the second composer entry, you requested. Yours, Arie

  • Posted by: Arie 06:11, 1 May 2008 (PDT)
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I also noticed that the template {{Acap}} renders as:
Instruments: a cappella
whereas e.g. {{OrgAcc}} just gives the category. IMHO all the templates concerning instrumentation should render the same way, in order to maintain the PHP-script easier.

[EDIT - bobnotts: Template:acap now behaves in the same way as other accompaniment templates and should be used in preference to Template:a cappella]

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Hi Arie. Thanks for all the work you've done so far. I agree that the "a cappella" template should operate in the same way as the other instrument templates. However, as both {{Acap}} and {{A cappella}} are used on over 500 pages, we don't want to change either template. I propose to create a new template for the purpose, "acappella", which the add works form would use. The new template would be the same as the existing "acap" template except that it wouldn't include "Instruments:" as you suggest.

As for the second composer entry, I'm sorry for not making myself clear. Some works listed on CPDL have more than one composer (albiet a very small number, eg. Psalm 65 (Thomas Attwood Walmisley and W. A. C. Cruickshank)). In the case of a submitted work having more than one composer, we would need to have a separate (optional) field on the add works form. The output would be {{Composer|2|Thomas Attwood Walmisley|W. A. C. Cruickshank}}

As for movements of a larger work, see Ye people, rend your hearts (No. 3 from 'Elijah') (Felix Mendelssohn) which I believe is a good example of the appropriate output. I hope this helps!

  • Posted by: Arie 03:13, 2 May 2008 (PDT)
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Hi Robert. Thanks for the reply. It seems that I partially solved my own problem. As for the {{Acap}} template, I had to check the choice of accompaniment anyway, so you can leave it as is.

Second composer is clear, shouldn't give too much of a problem to implement that.

Another thing though is the implementation of the larger work. Key is that it must be filled in exactly, otherwise the link back will not work. I will think about this overnight.

Can you (or any of the other admins) access the original PHP-script? This would be helpful in order to figure out how the CPDL-number is issued. Thanks in advance.

Current state of the form is at Add a new work. Feel free to try it and comment on it or if you have any wishes, please let me know.

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Thanks for this, Arie. As I see it, the form shouldn't automatically add a CPDL no. - this would be added by the admin who reviews the works page and then removes {{AwaitingReview}}. So there is no need to get the old form - could we have "nnnnn" in place of where the number should be?

There's quite a few things I've picked up on - I hope it's not too much work for you!

  • Add 2 radio buttons next to "Lyricist or source of text". The choices would be "Lyricist" (ie. an individual who wrote the words) or "Source of text" (a part of the bible, for example). The output code would reflect the choice of radio buttons. If "Lyricist" was chosen, we should have {{Lyricist|Charles Wesley}} (for example). If "Source of text" was chosen, we should have '''Source of text:''' John 14: 15-17
  • Could you add these languages to the drop down list:
    • Basque
    • Catalan
    • Czech
    • Finnish
    • Greek
    • Ancient Greek
    • Hungarian
    • Huron
    • Icelandic
    • Lowland Scots
    • Middle English
    • Nahuatl
    • Old English
    • Quenya
    • Serbian
    • Slovenian
    • Ukrainian
    • Zulu
  • If the user doesn't select an option from a compulsory drop down list, currently a dash "-" is outputted. Can we change that to {{Language|Unknown}} or {{Cat|Unknown genre|Unknown genre}} or whatever?
  • Can we add an optional box for the text of the work (which would have a line break, <br> added to the end of each line)?
  • Remove "Ancient" from period list
  • Add "Other" to instruments list.
  • Separate keyboard reduction & keyboard version into 2 separate tick boxes (elaborate on descriptions for tick boxes - "Includes a keyboard reduction of the choral parts" & "Includes a keyboard version of a non-keyboard accompaniment". The former will add {{KbdRed}} and the latter would add {{KbdVer}}
  • Year of first publication should not be a required field (nor should it add a template - one does not exist)
  • Cannot type in ensemble specification box.
  • In Music Notation software list:
    • Capitalise "p" in "LilyPond"
    • Remove "-" from "Finale 1998", "Finale 1999" etc.
    • Correct capitalisation of "Encore"
  • Remove "(give URL, or name or file)" from line "Music notation file"
  • Replace the existing list of copyright choices with the following:
    • CPDL
    • Creative Commons
    • Free Art License
    • GnuGPL
    • MutopiaBSD
    • Personal
    • Public Domain
    • Religious
  • We need the existing free text box so users can specify the type of Creative Commons license they are using (if applicable).

When I got the outputted code, there were the following problems:

  • There shouldn't be a gap between "==Music files==" and "{{Legend}}"
  • The MP3 link was missing
  • There should not be a period (full stop) after the final file link
  • Can we use Template:ScoreInfo? If we do, we won't need any forced spaces (&nbsp;) on that line.
  • The additional copyright notes were missing
  • The lyricist line was above the composer line (the composer line should come directly below the title)
  • If the link is to a web page rather than directly to a file, the icon should be Network.png, {{net}} not {{extpdf}} or {{extmid}} (see this page for comparisons).
  • In the works output, all the info below the "year published field" was missing. We need "description" and "external links" below that, then the title "Original text and translations" with "{{NoText}}" if the text has not been added in the box above but "{{Text|Whatever}}" if the text has been added in the form. Also, any categories not added by the templates should be added at the bottom of the form.

That probably seems like a very long list! Sorry for that but it's best to get it right first time. Thanks again. Rob

  • Posted by: Arie 17:37, 2 May 2008 (PDT)
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Hi Robert. Thanks for the elaborate input. As you say, it's better to get thing right the first time.

Some fields are hidden or disabled until the user makes a choice that enables the field. That is on the instrument field. This will only be activated in case of Wind, mixed ensemble or Orchestra. I thought in other cases this would not give any extra information.

The Keyboard version checkbox gives a different value according to the choice made. In case of A cappella, it's {{KbdRed}}, in case of an ensemble it will be {{KbdVer}}. In all other cases it will be ignored but then it not visible anyway. Maybe that's bot clear form the form.

The Network.png icon shouldn't have gone wrong, but apparently there's still a problem with evaluation of the URL.

I did use the {{ScoreInfo}}> template, but then I saw that in case of one page it says 'one pages'. That's all. Maybe you can change the rendering of the template to page(s), for the rare occasion there is only one page of sheet music.

As for the rest, I am working top-down, and construction of the correct links is the major challenge, so I didn't do the easy bits yet.

I've been tinkering a bit last evening, and did some cosmetic work on the lay-out of the form. I've tried to make groups of fields which are more or less related to each other, and made the form less wide, making it easier to read. Not sure you like it, but I think it's an improvement. As far as now, I've only tested it with Firefox (on Mac) and Safari (on Mac). I'll be glad if someone else could check it with browsers they use, like Internet Explorer, Opera and what other flavours there are (like Linux based browsers).

So I'll be working on items you pointed out, and hopefully you will see the result soon. Anyway, the form will be updated with any change I make.

P.S. I thought maybe make two textboxes for the lyricist: one for the lyricist, and one for the the origin of the lyrics. So you would be able to not only give the the name of the lyricist, let's say J.R.R. Tolkien, but also the source: Lord of the Rings.

P.S.2 I could run a script before the form will be submitted, in which case the user would be notified, if any compulsory fields have no appropriate value, like the dash in drop-down lists. It might require an external Javascript (depending on the length of the script), in which case there will be another extension necessary. You will already need the HTMLETS-extension for the form.

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The fact that Template:acap and Template:a cappella include both Instruments: and a linebreak was a problem from the start. I wanted not to have the linebreak (and perhaps also the Instruments: part), but the winds were blowing in the opposite direction at the time. I would suggest that something shorter than "acappella" be used for the template name - editors like shorter names - maybe "acapp" would do just as well. If it meets with approval, I'll implement it.

NB. I corrected a typo: "Instructions" should have been "Instruments". -- Chucktalk Giffen 00:55, 13 May 2008 (PDT)

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Excuse my intrusion here, but I saw something strange in the list of languages Robert requested to be added to the dropdown list: Quenya is in fact a language, but a constructed one created by JRR Tolkien and spoken only in his Middle-earth fantasy land. I know how fanatic the LotRings fans can be, but don't believe they'll ever compose a piece for choir in such language :))). If we're talking of the country Kenya, they speak Swahili there (not Kenyan! ;). By the way, the list of languages is continuously growing on CPDL, it would be a good idea to have a simple way of adding new ones to the list in the future. You all are doing a great work on this "new works" form, I can't wait to see it online! Regards

N.B. Oh my, forget all I said above, there IS a work in Quenya language at CPDL! Incredible... lol
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Indeed, there is a work at CPDL in Quenya. That's why I created the categories for it in the first place. :) Actually, there are several Quenyan compositions, as well as compositions in some of the other Middle-Earth languages, but none hosted here.

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Thanks for the reply, Arie. For a view of the new form from IE 7 on Windows XP, click here. You can see that the boxes don't span the width of the window. Firefox in Windows produces a similar result - I guess it's just a question of screen resolutions.

I've just taken a look at Template:ScoreInfo and it seems to work just fine - see the sandbox for an example.

As for the cosmetic changes, I like the separating boxes. It's also better when it fits into the width of the browser window. Do you think it would be a good idea to merge "Title, opus etc", "Composer, etc.." and "Composition information" into one box, titled "Work information"? I'm not sure that the blue highlight boxes of "Title of work:", "Opus number:" etc is necessary.

A few more points that I've noticed:

  • Can the subgenre list vary depending on whether "Sacred" or "Secular" is chosen? See this page and this page for sacred and secular subgenres.
  • Can we have an additional (optional) field for sacred season? The choices would only be available if the user has chosen "sacred" music in the previous list.
    • Advent
    • Christmas
    • Epiphany
    • Candlemas
    • Lent
      • Ash Wednesday
    • Palm Sunday
    • Holy Week
      • Maundy Thursday
      • Good Friday
      • Holy Saturday
    • Easter
      • Ascension
    • Whitsunday (Pentecost)
    • Trinity
    • Corpus Christi
  • Under "Number of voices", "ie." should be "eg."
  • What is the "description" box under voicing for?
  • Can you add a drop down box for choosing the catalogue type if other than opus number, eg. "K" for Mozart, "BWV" for Bach, HWV for Handel, etc.

In the output code:

  • Instruments output should be

'''Instruments''': {{WindAcc|Wind accompaniment: Flute, Oboe, Horn and Bassoon}}
not
'''Instruments''': {{WindAcc}}
:Flute, Oboe, Horn and Bassoon
And in the output code:

  • Instead of saying "Part of", can we have '''Larger work:''' ''[[Name of Work]]''

Good work!

  • Posted by: Arie 01:56, 5 May 2008 (PDT)
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Hi Robert.

  • I've seen the problem with IE. I also had a chance to look at this morning on my work.
Part of it seems like a rendering issue on Windows. The description of the fields should be 200 pix wide all the way down, and it isn't. By the way, the colouring of the description area isn't necessary, but I thought it might help reading the form. The colour blue is quite arbitrary.
As for the textboxes, they have a fixed length (on screen). I estimated a total width of the page of about 800 pix wide, making it possible to view on about every monitor without problems. I might add another 200 pix to the lenght for the textboxes, making the page width about 1000 pix wide. I would very much like the textboxes have a fixed length on screen, instead of incorporating more JavaScript on the page.
  • The Fieldsets are also quite arbitrary chosen. I just looked for bite-size chunks, but combining composer and workdata into one fieldset is also possible.
  • I already thought of changing subgenre according to choice of secular vs sacred, but I got entagled in a major problem with textencodings, which took quite a long time to sort that out. Thanks for the links to the subgenre.
  • I should have looked at the implementation of the instrumentation templates, and as for the {{SoreInfo}} template, I must have had my double vision glasses on...
  • For the sacred season, I assume that where you have an extra indentation, you would like some kind of separator??
  • A drop down menu for the catalogues would be usefull indeed, but the only two sources I've found on the internet so far are [Composer Name ~ Cataloger Ident Codes] and this list on [Classical Net]. There are many ambiguities, and I didn't figure out how to implement this in a correct way. Any suggestion is more than welcome.

In all: the form is growing and best of all getting very complete. I will have not much time this week, so it may take until next weekend for some major updates. Sorry for that.

  • Posted by: Arie 06:46, 11 May 2008 (PDT)
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To all: a new version of the Add new work form is on-line, incorporating as I believe most of the requested features, considering the above remarks.

To be tested by you what works best: at the accompaniment information: when you choose for Wind Ensemble, the receiving script puts in Wind accompaniment in the template, whereas in the case of Mixed Ensemble this is put in the text box below, so may change it according to your will. Just try it.

Well the link: Add a new work